Yes, but does that mean you show in exactly the same division, year after year after year, collecting blue ribbons? Not trying to be snarky, but I don’t understand what the point would be. And I say this as someone who is currently working with a trainer once a week to get the horse I bred to get to the highest level I can get him to. I think if I got him to 2’6" and won a bunch of blue ribbons, I’d hang it up if I couldn’t progress with him. After all how many blues does any of us need in the same class?
[QUOTE=SportArab;7887464]
Yes, but does that mean you show in exactly the same division, year after year after year, collecting blue ribbons? Not trying to be snarky, but I don’t understand what the point would be. And I say this as someone who is currently working with a trainer once a week to get the horse I bred to get to the highest level I can get him to. I think if I got him to 2’6" and won a bunch of blue ribbons, I’d hang it up if I couldn’t progress with him. After all how many blues does any of us need in the same class?[/QUOTE]
You do sound snarky though.
Some people compete against their own goals and the ribbons are a bonus. To some people a day at a show where they get a blue but they were not able to accomplish whatever their hurdle of the moment is does not count as a successful show day. Just because blue ribbons mean the end and a success to you does not mean that is the case for everyone.
I am not saying there are people who enjoy the win all the time thing and are more than capable of moving up and all that.
I am just saying that not everything is as you want it to be and it is not fair to paint everyone who is not moving up to the next height as unmotivated or cheating or whatever.
Actually I did not say I’m complaining about these folks. I said I don’t understand the motivation. I’d be happy to hear what it is. To me, whether it’s hunter/jumpers or dressage, it’s about the journey.
But I feel when a judge gives me a blue, it means the judge is saying it’s time to move up. JMHO.
[QUOTE=SportArab;7887464]
Yes, but does that mean you show in exactly the same division, year after year after year, collecting blue ribbons? Not trying to be snarky, but I don’t understand what the point would be. And I say this as someone who is currently working with a trainer once a week to get the horse I bred to get to the highest level I can get him to. I think if I got him to 2’6" and won a bunch of blue ribbons, I’d hang it up if I couldn’t progress with him. After all how many blues does any of us need in the same class?[/QUOTE]
I would compete in the same division, yes. If that is what I could do with my horse, you bet I’d do the 2’6" mortified hunters from here until eternity…or until I could afford to move up (another horse, more skills, whatever it is that is missing from a move up).
Showing isn’t a checklist for me: done that, check. Done that, check. It’s about the pictures… nope, just kidding. It’s about the day, the fun, the friends, the test, AND the pictures.
[QUOTE=APirateLooksAtForty;7887172]
I’m not speaking to the average amateur; I’m speaking to those out there specifically who are NOT pushing themselves, as I alluded to in my first post. Believe me they are out there and I thought I made that clear in my initial post.[/QUOTE]
Who cares?
Let them show crossrails if they want. This sport is supposed to be fun and we’re already struggling with an image that isn’t attracting droves of new ammies. Why further criticize or ostracize them because you think they’re not jumping big enough?
Something else to keep in mind is that a lot of these nice horses might also be stepping down or have some maintenance issues that make even a 3" drop much better for them physically. I know of a few horses in that exact situation and they still clean up at 3’3. An uninformed person might think they’re choosing to stagnate and collect ribbons in 3’3 when that isn’t the truth at all.
[QUOTE=mroades;7886122]
because you cant find a 3’6" horse to even sit on with 150k to spend…[/QUOTE]
Jumping in several pages late but I would add that may who have a 3’6 horse figure that schooling and showing at 3’3 might preserve that investment for a year or two more. As at many levels, the higher divisions don’t fill so the 2 or 3 who show up to ride at that height enter the 3’3 because they have bothered to go.
See, I would have given folks the benefit of the doubt that the 3’3 was the push–that people who had been doing the 3’ AAs were trying to stretch and do a little more.
I know for me, at some point, that may very well be the case. And we’d certainly be that pair getting a ribbon by default of the class not having more people than ribbons, should we try it one day. (Heck that may even be the case at some of the smaller shows our first few times out in the AAs this year!) I’m OK with that. I work full time, with a schedule that doesn’t allow more than 4 days a week of riding, and a budget that doesn’t allow a horse in training. I do have that horse I’ve brought along myself, and had never jumped over 3’ before I got her; she’s probably capable of doing the 3’6, but I don’t know that I am, at least not with any consistency. So hey, it’s all for fun for me, and I’ll be happy if we do make it to the lows one day.
[QUOTE=pinkpony321;7886199]
The price difference between a winning 3’3" A/o and a Winning 3’6" A/O is about the addition of another zero, because it seems many of the winning 3’6" A/Os are also competitive in the professional divisions and derbies.
So, you add another $100K to the price, plus the cost of campaigning a professional division caliber horse for no additional gain? Why WOULD you do that unless you had limitless income? People who don’t want to spend that much money still want to be competitive, which is why they do the 3’3" division.
Ask me how I know![/QUOTE]
What is sad about this is that the “spirit” of the A/O’s is that an ammy horse is supposed to be a different animal from a pro’s horse. To be competitive in the A/O’s you now need a horse that is really a Derby or “Pro” horse.
Here’s my thing - if everyone’s doing the 3’3" A/O hunters, and if it’s possible to show at all the indoor shows in that division, won’t the horses in that division become as pricy as the ones in the 3’6"?
[QUOTE=SportArab;7887488]
But I feel when a judge gives me a blue, it means the judge is saying it’s time to move up. JMHO.[/QUOTE]
Really? Just because you were better then the others that day, you need to bump the fences up 6" and add 2’ to the stride? Even if the horse is not able to handle it? Or the rider is fearful, older or has physical limitations? So, do you just quit with the horse if it lacks scope/step and reaches its peak at 3’ or 3’3"? Gets older and needs to step down? Expect others to sell theirs once they start winning and start another one or park it in a field long before retirement age.
Bit of an undercurrent suggesting this is about getting beaten by the same people when they combine, not trying to save the division.
Beefing up the 3’6" would be better served by taking the owner out and allowing year long registered leases since the horses capable of pinning well are getting priced ever further from reality to purchase.
[QUOTE=SportArab;7887464]
Yes, but does that mean you show in exactly the same division, year after year after year, collecting blue ribbons? Not trying to be snarky, but I don’t understand what the point would be. And I say this as someone who is currently working with a trainer once a week to get the horse I bred to get to the highest level I can get him to. I think if I got him to 2’6" and won a bunch of blue ribbons, I’d hang it up if I couldn’t progress with him. After all how many blues does any of us need in the same class?[/QUOTE]
TBH, once you get to the 3’3" or 3’6" hunter divisions I have no problem with enjoying them for as long as you want. It’s really hard to get there for most mortals. Once you get there, there is always something you need to work on, because it’s about perfection.
We don’t see a ballet dancer refusing to do Swan Lake again because they’ve already done it. Most dancers look forward to doing it every year because it’s so challenging and rewarding. The choreography is primarily the same every year and it’s not about adding difficulty; it’s already difficult.
If you hit cruise control in the hunters enjoy the hell out of the sweet spot. The hunters should be pleasurable and a life-long pursuit of a perfect round. There is no need to graduate to something else unless you want to do so. You should be able to enjoy the partnership you’ve forged with your horse. That’s what the AOs is all about and what makes it kind of special compared to the other hunter divisions.
Beefing up the 3’6" would be better served by taking the owner out and allowing year long registered leases since the horses capable of pinning well are getting priced ever further from reality to purchase.
I’ve said something along these lines for years, but always got a sort of “not in our sandbox” response.
I’m an average ammy (the kind that works) who for years wanted to ride my horse, who was leased, in the A/Os. It wasn’t until a few years ago that I actually owned him, though.
And it wasn’t until the last few years that there was an open 3’6" division that us non-owners could really compete in on a non-green horse. But even then, that pits us against pros.
I could do it now - he’s certainly competent around a 3’6" course - but he’s no derby winner or huntersaurus rockstar. Actually, probably the only reason we’d do 3’6" now is for the challenge and the pictures. I know darn well that we would not be “competitive” with the likes of the winning 3’6" riders and horses - but we’d have a nice time. But that kind of money is a lot to spend on a nice time. Especially if I get hit with nerves that come from spending a fortune for a weekend and then tryingnottoscrewitup.
However, since I managed to successfully lobby a bunch of our local shows to offer a 3’6" option in the working hunters, now I don’t have to spend $1200 in order to do 3’6" anyway.
Or if I did want to spend, we’ll go play jumpers, where he actually is competitive at 3’6".
Even if one is bringing along a quality young horse, there are a number of factors that prevent a person from being able to get it to the point of being a competitive 3’6" horse. There’s sort of two ways - either you lay the money out up front and buy a quality 3’6" horse, or you buy the prospect and spend the money over time. Either way, it’s expensive.
Yes, but does that mean you show in exactly the same division, year after year after year, collecting blue ribbons?
Oh, for me it’s just about playing dress up. :winkgrin:
(joking)
From the perspective of an amateur who actually is doing the buy-young-and-cheap method of gaining a 3’6" AO hunter… in all honesty, while we are the poster children for this process, we will never actually make it into the 3’6" ring. I am fortunate enough to have the time to ride every day, ability to do the training by myself, and a fancy prospect with the potential to be competitive. We will start the pregreens next year but as soon as a large offer arrives it’s all over. I’m a normal person - I can’t say no to that kind of money. I’ll ending up buying another greenie and starting over again.
[QUOTE=findeight;7887788]
Really? Just because you were better then the others that day, you need to bump the fences up 6" and add 2’ to the stride? Even if the horse is not able to handle it? Or the rider is fearful, older or has physical limitations? So, do you just quit with the horse if it lacks scope/step and reaches its peak at 3’ or 3’3"? Gets older and needs to step down? Expect others to sell theirs once they start winning and start another one or park it in a field long before retirement age.
Bit of an undercurrent suggesting this is about getting beaten by the same people when they combine, not trying to save the division.
Beefing up the 3’6" would be better served by taking the owner out and allowing year long registered leases since the horses capable of pinning well are getting priced ever further from reality to purchase.[/QUOTE]
OK. So we’re talking about ME here. And for me, if I’ve topped out somewhere, I’ll find some other challenge my horse and I can enjoy.
I do, btw, think there should be both A/O and ATR (amateur to ride) classes.
Someone referenced me a few pages back in this thread, so I feel compelled to respond.
I own not one but TWO A/O horses.
The first is my beloved BBH. Bought him as a 7yo dressage flunkie. Spent the first year in the 2’6 ring, the second year in the 3’ ring, and the third year I tried to move up to 3’6 (skipping the then brand new 3’3 division, I’m so brave and stuff). After crashing (and I mean CRASHING) him into two oxers our first show of the year, I said to myself “hmmmm, maybe this 3’3 division isn’t such a bad idea after all” and moved back down. Perhaps it was the announcer calling over the loud speaker “jump crew to ring one, we have a few broken poles scattered about” that lead me to such a conclusion, but brave brave me, was no longer so brave. I spent the subsequent year at the 3’3, only to come up lame in the fall. 18 months, 2 MRIs and a surgery later, I had my horse back. I did a few shows at the 3’6, a few international derbies (with video to prove it), and decided I’d rather focus on my young green…
Gray horse. Bought him as one of those tall, pretty, wild 4yos, and again brought him along myself. Getting to the 3’ ring was a breeze, moved him up to 3’3 summer of 2013, and was reserve my first time out. I honestly thought I’d be in the 3’6 ring by Jan 2014, and would be cleaning up. He got hurt. Spent the rest of 2013…resting, and came back in 2014. We have had a bumpy road this year, and STILL don’t feel ready to step up to the 3’6. Call it ammy riding by me, green bean brain, or other erroneous issues, but we will probably spend 2015 in the 3’3 ring again (don’t want to break the precious 1st year after all).
Now? Black horse is leased to a lovely A/A rider who lets me show him when he needs a tune up, and I do so in the 3’3. Gray horse is still trying to grow up and be an adult. And I’m trying to ride less like a monkey and more like a Colvin every day of my life.
Moral of my story? Unless you know my story you don’t know why I’ve spent so much time in the 3’3 ring, and don’t shun me for doing so.
Why do you CARE what motivates others to stay in the same division?
Every person has their own personal motivation if they are bothering to show. You personally want to “move up” and try new things- that’s fantastic. Someone else may want to stay where they are - that’s fantastic.
Why? Articulate why you feel the need to move up- experience, challenge. Articulate why someone DOESN’T want to move up- perhaps (as seen by Nik’s post) there can be a whole lot going on behind the scenes you have no idea about.
Everyone has different goals. Respect that.
I believe the difference is big eq. For the juniors the big aspirations goal is 3’6 and if you can afford to do hunters too, it makes sense to stick with that level. For adults, there’s no big eq so no magic in 3’6.
Why? Because I don’t want to see my division die out. It’s that simple.
Now I was completely against the idea of the 3’3 AOs when it came out. I thought that it should have been a 3’3 Adult division. However, after bringing my horse back from a second suspensory injuiy I decided rather than move all the way back up to 3’6 to just be happy to do 3’3 with him. Loved the option of being able to jump a little higher than adults, but still have the handy class. With that being said though, I’m ready to move back up to 3’6 with a new horse. What is crazy to me is how the numbers have dropped so dramatically in the past few years. I remember back in 2007-2008 there would be 15+ younger 3’6 AOs at HITS Culpeper. Now you are lucky to get enough to fill the 3’6. Strangely enough it’s not just the 3’3 that is pulling people away. A lot of the folks who once did 3’6 in our area turned pro or just no longer show.
