Where are the Trakehners?

[Pokerface]

I had a TK by Schoenfeld. He was a beautiful mover and unbelievable jumper, but he was tough as a youngster. Literally all of the broken bones I have ever had were thanks to him. By the time we had gotten over the hump, i had lost my faith in him and decided to move along to the next horse. I sold him to a kid who went on to be extremely successful with him. He could have made a great jumper, he was catlike, which is how he was able to dump me so easily lol. I think if I had him in a different program we could have been more confident with each other, but I don’t lament moving him along, I like having a horse who wants to keep me in the saddle .

[capalypinto]

@beowulf

hypersensitive, in my experience. If they raced, they can be in pain and that can translate to being “reactive”

I guess I meant sensitive meaning “reactive”. I found this phylogenetic tree based on DNA analysis of 50 different horse breeds. From this study, the Trakehners are more closely related to thoroughbreds, more than most other "warmbloods"Phylogenetic analysis of horse breeds, but found another one that shows more breeds. Genetic relations of horse breeds

[capalypinto]

@Renn_aissance

I think they’re just thinkers. They want to be mentally occupied and they do well when they have a problem to solve. If they are not kept focused on the problems you set them, they find something else to think about. You may not like what they find.

Haha. May not like what they find! Great explanation, similar to thoroughbreds in that respect.

[Daventry]

@CBoylen

There are fewer of them to start with, and it’s honestly pretty rare to find one with the scope for the jumpers or the style for the hunters. Therefore people don’t look for them and the cycle continues.

CBoylen pretty much said what I was going to post. Unfortunately, they do tend to get a bad rap. I have seen quite a few Trakehners over the years that were very scopey and stylish over fences…but I have also seen just as many that aren’t. As someone else also mentioned, they tend to be a breed that does best when they are kept busy or they come up with ways to entertain themselves.

[Paint_Party]

My mom loved Trakehners so we ended up breeding to several different stallions. This was a while back so they were older names like Schonfeld, Leonidas, Memphis and Enrico Caruso. They were all lovely horses and beautiful movers. They’d win high prizes in the hack classes and they could all jump. But their jumping style for hunters, well… In general, they just didn’t want to roll their shoulders and yank up that front end. I was always puzzled by that, trying to ascertain what part of their conformation led to that.

I got along fine with riding Trakehners and Trakehner crosses. But there’s nothing dull about them. They are intelligent, inquisitive horses that want to work and get bored with incessant drilling. At least that was my experience with them.

[capalypinto]

@Paint_Party

They are intelligent, inquisitive horses that want to work and get bored with incessant drilling. At least that was my experience with them.

Would you consider them for an adult amateur? I know that each horse is an individual, but there are definitely differences among the different breeds. My first horse was an OTTB and I really prefer riding the forward thinkers, but it has been awhile since I’ve ridden, so I probably should consider those less responsive (backward thinkers?).

[Daventry]

@Paint_Party

They’d win high prizes in the hack classes and they could all jump. But their jumping style for hunters , well…In general, they just didn’t want to roll their shoulders and yank up that front end. I was always puzzled by that, trying to ascertain what part of their conformation led to that.

I’ve always attributed much of this trait to the Arabian lines.

[Paint_Party]

That’s an interesting idea. A lot of Arabians— including those that jump fairly well— do seem to also fold their front legs tightly, too, yet still not roll their shoulders up and forward.

@capalypinto

Would you consider them for an adult amateur?

Oh boy. I’m not going to make generalizations about a breed. But I’m an amateur; only trained our own horses and rode with trainers. I got along with Trakehners, yet I also remember how Trakehners were often dismissed by quite a few hunter trainers as being too flighty and “the Arabs of the warmblood world.” Yet I’ve ridden some really nice Arabians, so… Plus, I like a sensitive horse that forces me to think and makes me use my aids with forethought. If that’s you, then give a few different Trakehners a try.

[Pally]

A few years ago (ok, it was well over a decade) I spent a summer in Germany with a TK breeder. Best summer ever! Here’s what I learned, probably complete with some of the awkward translations we made between languages.

Temperament: It’s not so much that they are hot or difficult, but as my host would say, they are “not weekend horses.” By that she meant they weren’t good for what we’d call the “weekend warrior” aka. the ammie owner who just wants to come out and toodle around when they can. They like to have a regular job. They like having things to think about. Of course, individual variation definitely exists, and I did see plenty of it, but by and large they are thinkers and partners (or bosses, if you aren’t up for the partner role, lol).

Type: From what I saw there was definitely a desire for some breeders to “win” the in-hand breed inspections (mainly the three-year-old but applies to foal too). So really flashy movement is sought after. [This isn’t to say a correct and good-but-not-extravagant mover wouldn’t be approved or even well-graded, but they may not get the best score of the day, or any of the buzz around them.] The kind of movement that wows on the triangle does in dressage too. Now, they were probably “bred for dressage” so it becomes a bit of a chicken and egg scenario. But, by and large, the conformation that produces this movement isn’t the same as what produces a GP scope jump. So there’s that. Of course, there are still plenty of individuals in the breed with a conformation more suited to jumping, but it’s a sub-set of what is already a smaller registry.

Trends: When you talk about North America, I think they have a bit of a bad name. Maybe not so much that everybody avoids them, but perhaps enough that when someone happens to have one as a h/j, they aren’t shouting it from the rooftops (I know the inspected horses are branded, but if you were talking about having a TK parent, who would know unless you actually recorded it with USEF?). I’m not implying there’s a huge covert group of TK hunters hiding out on the show circuit… just that you might have shared the ring with one or two and didn’t even realize it.

[beowulf]

@Pally

Trends: When you talk about North America, I think they have a bit of a bad name. Maybe not so much that everybody avoids them, but perhaps enough that when someone happens to have one as a h/j, they aren’t shouting it from the rooftops (I know the inspected horses are branded, but if you were talking about having a TK parent, who would know unless you actually recorded it with USEF?). I’m not implying there’s a huge covert group of TK hunters hiding out on the show circuit… just that you might have shared the ring with one or two and didn’t even realize it.

You’re onto something there… and I also think that very few breeders are breeding specifically for the H/J market… That is usually an “if all else fails” scenario.

Not that I think poorly of H/J at all – I don’t – but the TK breeders I know are breeding specifically for eventing or dressage, and if they sell a horse to a H/J home it’s because it didn’t have the chops for their desired sport.

I’m sure many have shared a ring with a TK and even a TB in the H/J world. Most are “unrecorded breeding” so you really would never know… but quite a few nice eventers have stepped down from UL and gone and been competitive in the H/J ring, particularly derbies.

[Dance_To_Oblivion]

You definitely want to evaluate the individual horse, regardless of the breed. I breed Trakehners, ride Trakehners, compete Trakehners (although eventing and dressage focused). I have some that are incredibly perfect AA horses, literally living the AA dream with them. Then there are others that are not, just like every other breed! There are definitely people out there breeding Trakehners for the hunter/jumper world but honestly what I have found a lot of are undercover Trakehners people don’t list the breed or change the breed since Trakehners aren’t seen as popular.

[Janet]

@capalypinto

I just thought the warmbloods were more level-headed with larger strides compared to the hypersensitive and nervousness of the thoroughbreds.

This is an unrealistic stereotype. How many TBs have you actually known? You would be hard pressed to find a breed with a longer stride than the TB. (The average racing TB has a 20 foot stride. Secretariat had a 25 foot stride, Man O War had a 28 foot stride.) Most TB I have known have been pretty level headed, and neither hypersensitive nor nervous. In fact, the most “hypersensitive and nervous”, as well as aggressive, horses I have known have been German warmbloods.

[OfCourseItsAnAlter]

I am of an age that I grew up riding Thoroughbreds because that was all we had. They dominated the H/J world back then. They are still my favorite breed.

I believe that the main reason they have gotten a bad reputation these days is that there are so few people today who can take a Thoroughbred fresh off the track and turn it into a solid H/J citizen.

[capalypinto]

That makes sense that they would have longer strides, but was just wondering why they seem to have been replaced by the warmbloods. My first horse was an OTTB. I also grew up when thoroughbreds were the norm in all hunter-jumper shows. He was as level-headed as could be. But I think that overall, the breed is of a more sensitive nature than the warmbloods.

[capalypinto]

That is so interesting that in the US they have a bad reputation in the H/J world. What is the reasoning for this bad reputation?

[capalypinto]

I agree that it’s important to evaluate the individual horse, but there are definitely breed differences. I was even shocked at the lack of thoroughbreds at the Eventing competition I watched last weekend. I thought every other horse would be a thoroughbred, but even there it seems that the warmbloods are more popular. Thoroughbreds need to hire a new PR manager.

[Scribbler]

The WB have bigger trots than the TB, but not bigger canter. Matters for dressage.

The WB can be taller than many TB and have more bone. May appear sturdier.

The TB is generally a byproduct of racing and is not purpose bred. The people breeding marketing and promoting sport horse prospects are breeding WB.

A TB that has learned to race does need to unlearn that as a saddle horse.

Some TB have track injuries.

Remember as well that modern WB developed from carriage or cavalry horses crossed with TB. They are cousins of TB.

[Willesdon]

@capalypinto

That is so interesting that in the US they have a bad reputation in the H/J world. What is the reasoning for this bad reputation?

To throw in my two pennies worth, TBs are intelligent, clever, sensitive and one needs to work with them and to keep that clever brain busy. That means at least a minimum level of empathetic horsemanship and riding skill. Most come from a racing background and the trot isn’t the gait that has been selectively bred in over the past five centuries. It can take work to develop a good trot in an OTTB.

A WB, by comparison, is designed to be a specialist competition animal but - warning: sweeping generalisation coming up - they are just slower mentally, tolerant of rider mistakes because only a few generations ago they were pulling carts or being army remounts. In this role, the breeders were looking for a good trot… so, ask a TB to do something, it messes up first time and it worries, then gets it right second go, ask for a third go and the TB goes “yeah, right, done that. What’s next?” By contrast the WB can take ages to engage it’s brain and enthusiasm, does the task wrong first time but isn’t particularly worried, ask again and it does it, then a third time, fourth time, fifth time because, hey, repetition makes it perfect. That might be why they are preferred in H/J world.

Before anyone shrieks and says “But my WB is as hot as fire and sensitive as a snowflake…” the ‘modern’ style WB has a LOT of blood added to improve sporting performance. As much as European breeders dis the TB, scratch a successful WB pedigree and see plenty of TB up close.

The Trakehners have had a closed book for longer than most of the other WB registers and were specifically bred as a riding horse rather than farmhorse/army remount, with only TB and Arab blood allowed in. That does make them the most TB-like of the German horses.

In the world of eventing, everyone is looking for “blood” and horses are advertised as e.g. 80% blood because at the higher levels it is still necessary, particularly xc for courage, stamina, economic speed. So whilst there are a load of WB horses in eventing, check their breeding and frequently see TB up close. Micheal Jung’s Sam is a case in point, registered Hann but almost full TB.

[ladyj79]

Longer stride has nothing to do with modern show jumping.

[SusanO]

Didn’t Schoenfeld (sp?) sire an number of hunters. I think he didn’t just sire “hunter breeding” horses but actual hunter performance horses. And I think there are some hunters a while back that were sired by a Trakehner stallion standing in Canada - perhaps closely related to Abdullah. You also find the Trakehner Lateran in jumping pedigrees - for example Shine. But he didn’t look like what is the preferred type for Trakehners today.

Pro’s want a horse for the hunters that jumps a certain way. If they find that they do not give a rat’s patootie what breed the horse is. And I am certain the top pros do not have a problem riding a TB. They grew up with them, love the ride and would love to have one that jumps like a Holsteiner.