Where are we to discuss *ok, below expectations* performance of US eventing?

[Jealoushe]

[QUOTE=Jazzy Lady;6471062]
See, I’d like to see Tiana on a team again. I thought the beginning of the ride was freaky, and she was caught of guard at the stop (she had a great line in) at three, but she rode the crap out of that horse and by 2/3 of the way around, the horse was gaining more and more confidence and he finished incredibly strong. You could see the shift in his way of going when he started to have fun and she rode the genes out of him. I think he has lots of potential, but he needs more experience in electric venues and she needs to ride him like she did at the end from the moment they say go.

Mary Kings ride was not nice. I’m sorry, but it was pretty bad. She rode by the seat of her pants, her horse was flipping her the bird, but was honest as hell. He wanted the jumps and just went for them, but it could have easily gone the other way for her. If there were penalties for taking out flags, she’d have plenty. She sure made the ground crew work on xc. I was a bit shocked she came out of it the way she did to be honest.[/QUOTE]

I agree…if riders like Tiana don’t get out there and get a chance they will never get the experience the other riders have. Not to say I don’t think Sinead or Colleen could have also been given a chance.

I thought if Marys ride were anywhere else, she would have been pulled up for dangerous riding.

[echodecker]

DownYonder, you hit the nail on the head! That is the cause of what I think is the problem as I posted previously.

The Euro nations have Dressage as the foundation for how they all learn to ride. We have the hunters…see where we end up playing catch up? I dont’ know much about how the Aussies start out, but I suspect it’s running and jumping across country, which gives us the great XC, but still needs work in the Dressage ring.

When I lived in Germany, I made the shift to actual dressage because I thought I ought to take advantage of the available resources! I had been riding for 20+ years at that point, competing for most of those, primarily hunters but also lots of running around hill and dale on whatever I could find. So I could ride! But I couldn’t ride dressage! It took about a year to really start feeling like I had a different seat, and probably abother 6 months to really start having an effective dressage seat. And then you look around and the 8 year old German kids who can sit on those horses from the age of 5 or 6 better than most of us!

And what Tuppysmom said is totally true, it’s so much cheaper to compete there and the level and quality of competition is much higher!

[FrittSkritt]

[QUOTE=RiderWriter;6470990]
Lucy, glad to find you on here so I can personally congratulate you on behalf of your countrymen/women - BRAVO!!! You guys were FABULOUS! What I would give to swing a leg over that Wega… (I love a grey anyway) She is SOME HORSE. I was just terribly impressed with your team, and I know everyone else was as well. No more, “Sweden who?” going on - you guys have arrived in Eventing, for sure! Keep up the good work. :winkgrin:[/QUOTE]

+1 to that! Now I’m seriously considering changing to dual citizenship so I can identify myself with such a powerhouse.

Also goes to show that Swedish WBs aren’t too shabby, either. :winkgrin:

[HRF_Second_Chance]

[QUOTE=circus peanuts;6470978]
I watched the replay of the show jumping last night on my DVR. I must say that I was not impressed by Tiana at all. She was drug around that course by her horse and did not look like an olympic contender.

Watching her XC I was really scared for her and was glad she made it out alive. I’m not sure why she was picked for the team as she obviosuly doesn’t look to be of the same caliber of everyone else on our team. Will, PD, KOC and Boyd all looked like they were riding their horses…Tiana looked like RM was riding her. I don’t know if it was just a bad event for her this weekend but I think it was too early to take her.[/QUOTE]

I was floored when she showed up late to the ring and galloped in. It seemed to really throw her off but I do agree I’d like to see her develop as a rider. I’m not a fan at this point, however, she’s young and I’d be curious to see where she goes as a rider from here. I’m sure this was a HUGE learning curve for her and she was tossed into the deep end for sure. The show jumping team also has a very young lady who isn’t quite as experienced internationally so it’ll be interesting to see how she holds it together.

[HRF_Second_Chance]

[QUOTE=echodecker;6471279]
We have the hunters…see where we end up playing catch up? [/QUOTE]

Oh brother, is that where we’re going to lay the blame? Because they start in hunters? I guess nobody is responsible for their own education.

[vineyridge]

I think that with Katie Prudent and GM holding her hand, Reed Kessler will be just fine. Difference in coaching quality.

[Jazzy_Lady]

Show jumpers are a different ballgame completely, because there are more international events held in NA that the stiff competition actually comes to compete at. The best of the best actually turn up at Spruce Meadows and the jumpers spend more time overseas. They get the experience of competing side by side with other countries quite often. There also isn’t any subjectivity involved. You jump clean and fast or you don’t.

[HRF_Second_Chance]

Katie mentioned that she’s never jumped this high before! But she does seem quite relaxed in the blog posts I’ve read. Now that I’m getting older (shhh…don’t tell anyone!) it’s always fun to watch the emerging talent take shape!

[omare]

I think Reed Keeslers experience level at her age is unique–I understand she has been riding European international 1.5 m courses for awhile and was only held back from the big big classes (1.6m) by her age–she had to turn 17! I am in awe of that child. She seems quite confident, well trained and well mounted and brave so I doubt she needs handholding (at least the type I would need!) And it would seem the Prudent international method of training young GP riders toughens them up early for the challenges of international competition. I am really looking forward to watching her ride!

[fooler]

@HRF Second Chance;6471327

Oh brother, is that where we’re going to lay the blame? Because they start in hunters? I guess nobody is responsible for their own education.

True - It is each person’s responsibility to improve their own riding. If you really want to get to the top, you may have to go to the trainers. Look at many of the gymnasts or figure skaters, or for that matter DH’s youngest daughter who went to a school for the arts as a teen. All that got her was an audtition with American Ballet, which she passed, and about 10 years of dancing with “Misha” around the world.:lol:
Oh yeah DH’s ex was not happy that the daughter lived away from home. So it is not easy at all.

[DownYonder]

[QUOTE=HRF Second Chance;6471327]
Oh brother, is that where we’re going to lay the blame? Because they start in hunters? I guess nobody is responsible for their own education.[/QUOTE]

I am not sure anyone is looking to “blame the hunters”, but rather to point out the differences in the way a typical German kid learns to ride versus the way a typical American kid learns to ride.

And I also want to stress again that the heavy immersion in dressage for the German kids does far more than just teach them how to do a good dressage test. They learn how to get a horse working through the topline, coming through from the hind end into the bridle without leaning on the bit, listening to seat and leg aids, and developing better balance under the rider - ALL of which come in very handy for negotiating fences, whether in the ring or on the XC course.

When the typical German kid gravitates toward eventing, he already knows how to do the above. He doesn’t have to be taught those skills or be drilled-drilled-drilled in them. Heck, I know of trainers in Germany who won’t even let the kids jump at all until they have a darned good mastery of putting and keeping their mounts on the bit!

Furthermore, the German kids typically ride ponies well into their late teens - they don’t make the jump to horses at age 12 to 14 the way American kids tend to do. And these are usually ponies well versed in both dressage and jumping – many of them are like mini-warmbloods, with big gaits and lots of power and athletic ability. Kids that learn to ride these ponies grow up with a lot of confidence and skill, and the transition to bigger horses in their late teens isn’t as much of a “shock” for them.

Not the same for the typical American kid who learned to ride on little hunter ponies and then tried to transition to a horse at age 13 or so. Yes, many of those ponies and small hunters are certainly wonderful on a hunter course, but they don’t have the same big springy gaits or powerful, scopey jump as the German ponies.

And that brings up another issue regarding the differences between the German system that focuses on dressage and jumping, and the American system that mostly revolves around hunters. The German kids don’t have to worry about “style” over the fence, or the fact that their mount wants to gallop on here or there instead of keeping the same leisurely pace around the ring, or be concerned if their pony wants to play a little bit between the fences, or fret about their pony not having a hack winning trot, or any of the myriad other things that American hunter kids focus on. Instead, the German kids grow up riding with a more “balls to the wall” approach, so they learn to ride fast and aggressively on course, and a powerful, scopey mount that doesn’t behave “perfectly” through the course doesn’t intimidate them.

It’s just a different mindset, and a different set of skills being honed in the German kids. I dunno, seems to be working pretty well for them.

[LucyShow]

You know what?

We are trying to copy you guys! Everyone here is so fed up with “ponyriding” as we call it that the association is trying everything to get the kids to start out earlier on horses and also enforcing “styleclasses” in the Championships for ponies and juniors/YR!

[LucyShow]

PS Thanks guys for your kind words, yes Wega is one of a kind…

Saras mom who owns the horse turned down a major offer (1,500,000 USD) from a US buyer this fall. She was actually quoted in an article saying “she couldn´t care less for the money, she bred for her daughters to ride, never to sell!!”

As far as I understand O´Connors were involved…DS

Nope it was Mark Todd…

[riderboy]

[QUOTE=Eventguy;6471052]
Was it CMP or Wofford that helped DOC medal? I know Jimmy coached both Karen and David, just don’t know when he stopped. Also Jimmy coached the Canadian team pre DOC and IMO very well could have put the basics in place for their 2010 WEG performance.

Yeah, I’m still bitter Jimmy isn’t our next coach :mad: but I’ll take DOC over CMP any day!:yes:[/QUOTE]

Amen Bro. I think the one unsung hero here has to be Chris Bartle, the German coach. Damn, if only we could have gotten him. He’s done it all, but he’s also a good COACH. And he’s a Brit. There has to be something in the water over there.

[vineyridge]

Do we all agree that Jane Marshall Dillon was a Master Teacher? At the time she taught there was no difference between show hunter riding and show jumper riding as far as the basics are concerned.

She would not let her riders touch the horse’s mouth until the rider had developed a completely independent seat. (This is a slight exaggeration, but contact was very, very limited.) And all her horses were completely stabilized so they would continue to do the same speed and gait until the rider asked for something different.

Do teachers today still teach that way? One seriously doubts it, since you have people out showing very early on, and they can’t ride their way out of a paper bag.

[LucyShow]

[QUOTE=riderboy;6471749]
Amen Bro. I think the one unsung hero here has to be Chris Bartle, the German coach. Damn, if only we could have gotten him. He’s done it all, but he’s also a good COACH. And he’s a Brit. There has to be something in the water over there.[/QUOTE]

Yup, and our teammember 21 yo Ludwig Svennerstal has been training with him the last 2 years and seems to be planning the same concept until Rio!

[Renascence]

There is actually some really good riding going on in Hunters. That said, I think cross training over cross country fences really smartens up a rider not to lay on their neck and be a passenger, etc.

Riding dressage takes a different skill set than riding hunters and cross country. In the USA eventing there is too much whining that dressage counts too much now and is not at the heart of what eventing means, and we need a long format, etc. It is seriously disrespectful to the event riders who take the time and trouble to learn to lay down good dressage tests to be dissed this way. Those who whine about the dressage part are simply those who don’t know how to ride dressage and get a high score. The Europeans are kicking our butts because they respect and learn dressage, which also enables them to train up and develop their own horses.

[ccoronios]

[QUOTE=madamlb;6467385]
Goodness, this thread rankled this morning. Probably because my country, of strong fantastic eventers, had two people fall off. Just a bit crushed over here.

How could you be underwhelmed with three riders in the top twenty and all riders around clear? Couldn’t you be a bit more supportive? It’s not even over yet and you’ve got this thread up! We had two people fall off, and I can promise you the Australian eventing fans are saying how proud we are of our team anyway and how we’ll be back better than ever. Not ripping them apart for falling off. Also, what do you expect? Why does the US have to be the best at everything??? You have a great team (two Australians and Heath Ryan’s horse- just saying’) can’t you just be happy with that and wait and see how they go?

You people are strange.

Sorry if that sounds really harsh, I had about four hours sleep and the rest of the night was spent watching cross country nightmares, I am not my perkiest :D[/QUOTE]

Thank you. That was needed. Seriously.

Carol

[ccoronios]

DownYonder, “or any of the myriad other things that American hunter kids focus on.” Such as the color of their coat? Or bling on the bridle/helmet? Or if the judge will knock them down because they’re not riding in a $5000 saddle? Dang - last time I bought a saddle, HORSES weren’t even $5000!!!

And Bill Steinkraus and Carol Lavell and Mike Plumb were muddling through, somehow.

C

[HRF_Second_Chance]

[QUOTE=ccoronios;6471961]
DownYonder, “or any of the myriad other things that American hunter kids focus on.” Such as the color of their coat? Or bling on the bridle/helmet? Or if the judge will knock them down because they’re not riding in a $5000 saddle? Dang - last time I bought a saddle, HORSES weren’t even $5000!!!

And Bill Steinkraus and Carol Lavell and Mike Plumb were muddling through, somehow.

C[/QUOTE]

Shows how much you know. We don’t do bling on our bridles or our helmets.

Seriously, get off the hunters. Hunters aren’t the problem. It’s the American instant gratification thing. It’s pretty obvious here in the States we focus more on the jumps and less on the flat period. OVERALL. All trainers are working under the pressure of ‘why isn’t my kid jumping x height or winning x ribbon’ so they buy the horse that can.

Take your issues up with the AMERICAN system, not just the hunters.

And things have evolved pretty far from back in the day of those riders you’ve mentioned.