Where to find warhorse TB mares

[Simkie]

why cant I go to Churchill or Belmont and find a nice, young gelding who needs a new career LOL

I know this is in jest (partially, maybe ;)) but it’s because those horses generally have a lot of class to drop before they come down to “sport horse” prices. What’s the lowest claiming tag at those tracks? I’m guessing five digits? A horse that can’t run there will usually move to a crappier track, for a lower tag, before falling out of the bottom of the ladder at those “rough places.”

Sometimes you can develop a relationship with trainers at the “fancy” tracks who are really just looking to retire instead of that progression, or you get enough of a reputation where they’ll come to you (the Gate to Great people seem to have some of these ins) but for the most part, if the horse is running for a $40k tag, isn’t winning, and can be sold to another trainer for $20k to move to another track and run for a $25k tag, that’s what’s going to happen. It’s not going to be sold to a sport horse person for $2k to go be a hunter.

You can develop your OWN connections at some of the crappier tracks by volunteering for CANTER or FLF or whatever group does the listings for your local crappy track. That’ll give you the in to build your own relationships with the guys there and get first crack at the horses. And perhaps even get to purchase a horse that wouldn’t even be listed because the trainer doesn’t want to deal with the hassle, but does want to move the horse on away from the track.

Bonus of getting to know people on the backside via volunteering through CANTER or FLF or whatever is trainers move around and it’s ALLLLLL about who you know. Maintain your friendships and maybe that guy will be running at Belmont the next year, or know someone, and you can get on the backside and start making friends at the “fancier” track.

But, IMO, it really, really often starts by putting in some early mornings on the backside of your local crappy track, forming relationships via volunteering through CANTER or whatever.

[snaffle1987]

^^ Yes. That is all well and true. The biggest problem the racing world faces with rehoming is they will run the horses into the ground (literally) before they offer them to someone as a project. I can see why they do it but it doesn’t help the cause for the horse any better. They fall through the cracks until the lowest slums of the slums and are then left to the other disciplines to clean up when the racing world is done with them. (just look at all the ones you see from your local trainers ending up in the kill pen)

Nick Zito has always been very kind to his horses who just don’t succeed and the majority end up in programs for adoption. All VERY lovely horses too! I think they go through rerun in NY

Spent a lot of time on the backside of the smaller tracks with some CANTER volunteers quite a few years back. It was the only way to get in a see what trainers had to offer. there some nice, diamonds in the rough who looked the part but the majority were not something I could take due to injury/soundness issues and it was extremely sad. Most of what was showed to me was not even listed and the trainers just wanted them moved (which was nice to get to see what wasn’t listed anywhere and a lot just came out of the woodwork).

The Monarchos mare I posted in this thread, AnnaMonarchos, listed on CANTER trainer listings. In her listings it states a recent Xray came up with a chip in her ankle which would further limit a career for the mare. I am assuming the Xray’d the ankle because there was filling/soreness associated and found the chip. The ad was posted in the summer months and guess what; the mare is still pounding away on the track! She’s a beautiful mare who is a great mover and looks relatively sound when last videoed in the summer. Last raced Charlestown on 12/1 where she finished 5th and has been racing 1 race per month since July. but are they just going to keep putting her in the starting gate with a chip in her ankle until she has no chance at a second career at all??

[Texarkana]

CANTER has filled a major need as a liaison between the backside and potential show/pleasure homes… but I still wish there was better communication between “racing people” and “show people.”

For example, statements like these from snaffle (not picking at you snaffle, I know you get it, just using it as an example):

“The biggest problem the racing world faces with rehoming is they will run the horses into the ground (literally) before they offer them to someone as a project.”

Because it’s both true and untrue; it’s a matter of perception. What race people forget (or fail to recognize entirely) is that the average show or pleasure person is not going to put the same level of maintenance into the horse to keep them sound. What show people forget (or fail to recognize entirely) is how gigantic the price difference is between race horses and show or pleasure horses.

Race people trying to sell a done horse say, “this horse is totally sound,” and he probably is-- when he’s receiving regular joint maintenance, NSAIDs, omeprazole, and living in a stall. Or with a year off. But very few pleasure or show homes can afford or are willing to keep up with that regimen. Then show people say, “race people are greedy and run their horses until they are too unsound to do anything else,” forgetting that these horses are literally the bread and butter for their people and are huge investments funding a multi-billion dollar industry.

We’ve come a long way, but I still believe the communication gap needs bridging.

Thanks for letting me vent, I know I’m preaching to the choir for the most part here.

[Simkie]

Totes agree Tex.

AnnaMonarchos has won nearly $7000 racing since July. It’s not a lot of cash, but that’s over a grand a start, which is better than a lot of lower level horses. And if no one is calling on her and willing to take her with the chip, what’s the trainer supposed to do? It’s not like all these guys have a farm with rolling acres where they can stash a horse with a chip until they can find someone to take a chance or they can afford the surgery to remove the chip. The horse stays at the track because there is literally no where else for it to go. She’s racing monthly instead of biweekly, which IS a break for some trainers.

Whole different culture, whole different world.

So totally recommend volunteering for any sort of listing service and spending mornings on the backside for ANYONE who would like to learn more about it.

[snaffle1987]

I don’t think AnnaMonarchos is with the trainer listed on the CANTER site anymore. perhaps claimed by the trainer who is now listed as owner/trainer and running her at Charlestown. I inquired on her but received no response. If you watch the jog videos of her in hand; the mare is obviously lame on right front with a head bob (which appears to be the ankle with the filling). Not saying she currently jogs like that now; months since her listing on CANTER; but do tracks even do a routine lameness check before races by a veterinarian? I know they do for the big races like the derby, etc.

I am thankful for organizations like CANTER, rerun etc. Social media has also helped bridge the gap and trainers can offer their horses to thousands of online viewers if they so choose.

Yes, I get it, the thoroughbred industry is a multi billion dollar industry fueld by a lot of wealthy people, bettors, and those willing to shell out hundreds of thousands/millions of dollars on yearlings and two year olds for the hope of winning a big race someday.

I’m not expecting someone to just give away a horse at all but it is frustrating to want to invest in a good thoroughbred as a second career and you feel borderline depressed leaving the track when the majority of the horses available have significant jewelry and/or cant stay sound without drugs/high maintenance because they were run until they couldn’t do so anymore.

Yes it is a whole different world and a whole different industry but how does the Thoroughbred industry intend to do right by their horses when they cant walk off the track to a second career without having some sort of higher maintenance issues.

It is a conversation that needs to be had. Out of the 20,000+ foals produced every year, the majority, regardless of what they sold for as weanlings/yearlings/2 year olds never amount to anything, end up stringing their way in the claiming ranks, disappear early in careers due to injury/health, and become available to second careers because they just were not racehorses. In my time touring various tracks looking at prospects; a lot of horses advertised as “sound” likely were not. Serviceably sound, perhaps, but would not pass a jog inspection. It is known that some downtime off the track will change a horse’s movement and also soundness so when looking at horses on the track; I took that into account too. You had to.

By all means I am not bundling all trainers on the track as a whole. I met very nice people in in my travels who genuinely cared for their horses and were willing to part ways with good, sound, young horses that didn’t have a lot of miles and still had racing in them; but weren’t making enough to make it worth it. There are good people in the business who actually do care and are very interested in their horse’s careers off the track. You had to take the good with the bad and there was always just as many bad/poor/uneducated “trainers” at the lower level tracks as there was good/honest/caring/educated trainers and if you knew what you were looking at you could weed out most

[snaffle1987]

…But the racing industry and its partners need to understand the secondary career industries just as we are expected to understand the ins and outs of the racing business when shopping.

I am personally looking for show horses; horses with the movement, build, and athletic ability to compete in a world of imports where the TB once dominated decades ago. I am not looking for a horse to go trail ride on the back 40 (which is OK for those who do!!). In this industry; I can shop domestically on US soil for young prospect with decent breeding, good movement, and bred for the discipline in the 3-6k range. These are horses with known breeding for performance disciplines/ The downside is they likely need to be started and they are 2 and 3 yr olds.

This is the Same price range as a lot of the TB’s being marketed off the track to second careers who might have maintenance issues, unknown athletic ability, are older, and also need to be restarted and retrained to a totally different career as they only know one thing; with no formal basics on anything else.

In my world the imports can command high five figures and six figure prices on a regular basis in show form whereas any Thoroughbred that may make it to that level of competition will never command that price. Why? Because show people just wont pay that for a Thoroughbred.

Its a fine line to walk on if you are willing to look at horses on the track for a performance career and what you’re willing to invest into a type of horse that isn’t as well received within the show community as it once was. So it needs to be understood that the show people are not “cheap” when they show up to the track looking to pay under 2500 for a prospect.

It just needs to be understood that for us, we are buying a horse for a performance discipline and we’re gambling: it might not even be able to jump past 2’6 or at all because we’re buying off a jog on the backside. The horse will need minimum month downtime to regroup, have any injuries or issues resolved, require complete retraining and any additional maintenance to keep it performance ready. And there are breeders on US soil breeding decent prospects for these disciplines as un-started, clean slates for not much more money (because domestic bred horses are not commanding the same attention as imports)

I commend the poster looking for war horse mares. Not many will look at these horses on the track and regardless of breeding or whether or not the sire should’ve been reproducing or if the prospect paid its way on the track; if it made 155 starts and is still going strong, sound, clean looking legs; then there is something to be said for that mare. She’s hardy and the breed needs that.

[Simkie]

Snaffle, I understand where you’re coming from but …

In my world the imports can command high five figures and six figure prices on a regular basis in show form whereas any Thoroughbred that may make it to that level of competition will never command that price. Why? Because show people just wont pay that for a Thoroughbred.

This is not the problem of the trainer/owner at the track who has a $40k claimer that is drop dead gorgeous and would CLEAN UP in the hack and over fences and is totally sound with no jewelry, the horse that isn’t winning in the $40k claimer races, the horse that you want to buy for $2k but the guy in the next barn over will buy for $20k. The horse that WOULD sell for $20k, easy, as a sport horse if it had a brand on it’s butt, but because it had JC papers instead, we feel it really has no value at all.

This is the problem of OUR SPORT INDUSTRY. Not the TB racing industry. Who in their right mind would sell a horse for $2k when it can get $20k?

So that horse will be sold for $20k, and drops in class. Maybe it picks up a chip. Maybe it bows. Maybe it just runs for another three years, dropping a little in class every now and then but still paying its way, until it really runs out of conditions and is now for sale on CANTER for $2500…still sound enough to race, still useful to the trainer if he can find a race for the horse, but with some arthritis or some jewelry.

But until sport horse people are willing to step in and pay more for the horse, and catch it earlier in the career spiral, this is what’s going to happen.

Sometimes you get lucky and a trainer understands the value of getting an expensive horse in the hands of a sporty type trainer earlier–the Gate to Great people really seem to have some ins like this–but those trainers are also cha-chinging enough where they can take the financial hit of not getting $20k for that horse. And hell, if there’s anything we ALL know, actually making money in horses and being in a financial spot to give up a pay day is an uncommon thing.

But laying all of the blame at the feet of the racing industry here is really misplaced, IMO. This is largely on US for not valuing our Thoroughbreds.

[snaffle1987]

Not exactly. Because our own homebreds from US soil are not even bringing 10k unstarted. Its a market problem entirely. If the horse is listed on CANTER or any other organization like that; the horse is done racing and needs a new career. Its not paying its way anymore. when the pricetag is 6k on a 5 year old (who is drop dead gorgeous) but has miles on it, has no guaranteed ability to jump; how do trainers expect to get that for a prospect when we all know that besides its good looks, its a throwaway of the industry and really only worth a max 3k investment on our part.

The industry of racing needs to take a look at itself as a whole. producing over 20,000 foals a year in which the majority never make it in the industry successfully and many tracks offer no programs or options for the horses retiring or no infractions for dumping them on a one way trip to the kill pen when the horse stopped making money (but could’ve very well sought a second career).

So how is it that the mares from the same track earlier in this thread found themselves in a kill pen in Kansas? why is it that I see race fit horses in the deep south showing up in Louisiana kill pens on facebook every week. where do all the horses retiring from the Chicago track end up or the Washington/Oregon area tracks or New Mexico/Arizona/Texas end up? Never hear about anything coming out of there for adoption and the listings are few and hard to come by and infrequently listed.

The racing industry overproduces with the dreams of the first Saturday in May and yet the options for these resulting foals when their careers are complete, while better than they used to be (and continuing to get better) are few and far between. The sport horse people, whether eventing or hunters and jumpers, etc, are willing to look at these horses as prospects and give them a chance. Many of us jump at the opportunity and some of us have even been burned by trainers misrepresenting a horse and are unwilling to go back an look. When I look at the big picture, step back and really look at it, we are the racing industry’s clean up committee.

I love looking at the listings online and finding horses for people and making those connections. But when I start digging into history’s of horses ive come across online that I take a fancy to, it can be depressing. Horses sold to PuertoRico straight off the backside of Churchill downs. Any horse sold to Puerto Rico its a guaranteed one-way ticket. The horse will be euthanized on the backside of the track when its done. Planes full of yearlings and 2 year olds destined for korea/china/japan or the South American countries. By the hundreds of animals every sale year. What happens to all of these foals when the careers in racing are done? Surely some will go on as broodmares or perhaps stallion prospects, but the majority will meet a grisly end

Again, thankful for the organizations that have allowed me to make the connections I’ve made but there are many strides that still need to be made to make the relationship better

[Simkie]

SO many tracks are now offering programs. SO many tracks are now banning trainers that sell directly to kill pens. There have been SO many gains made. Look at the TIP program. Look at the Thoroughbred Connect program run by the JC. Look at their new “sold retired from racing” classification. Good lord, look at how registrations have dropped in the past ten years:

http://www.jockeyclub.com/default.asp?section=FB&area=2

Do you know how many QHs were registered in 2015? Over 74,000.

Changes are absolutely, definitely being made. The ball is moving in the right direction.

As to why track horses still end up in kill pens? Bluntly: because it’s a hell of a lot easier for an owner to send a horse to a livestock sale next week and walk away with cash than to spend weeks showing the horse to people who may or may not actually keep an appointment, or because there IS no listing service at that track or because the trainer is now working off his farm in bumfuck nowhere and how is he even going to get people to SEE the horse.

We’re also facing a horse buying culture right now where it is the IN thing to do to rescue a horse from a kill pen and people will move heaven and earth to do that RIGHT NOW because OMG the horse is going to ship! But you have that same horse, maybe at the trainers, or maybe in a foster type program with CANTER, where you can go ride it and vet it and it’s at no risk of shipping to Mexico, and ho-hum. No calls, no interest.

We’re obviously coming from different places on this snaffle, but you’re really not giving credit for changes that HAVE been made. The racing industry is changing. It’s not going to happen overnight.

[Alibhai_s_Alibar]

PeteyPie: “I will add a dribble too. Just let me know who gets her. It’s funny how something about a horse just gets you. This one has very similar damlines as one of my mares, family 8h with Private Account on top. I’ll bet she’s big and beautiful and has a great floaty trot.”

Just reading through this thread now, and I’m going a little off-topic, but wanted to add that her dam is similarly bred to my guy, too- same tail male, same tail female, etc.: http://www.pedigreequery.com/doctors+secret

[Texarkana]

Really great post, Simkie! :applause:

[snaffle1987]

Did you not read my posts in which I said the industry was moving in the right direction as far as programs go and tings are better now than they’ve ever been in the past? Because I agree that things are better now and there are a lot of options out there but we still are not there yet

I agree to disagree on tracks banning those who ship to slaughter. many tracks have come out and said they would but have fallen to the wayside on their commitments to do so. Parx is one of memory that has been lapse. There are trainers out there who have killed horses for insurance fraud and yet are banned at a handful of tracks but permitted to train elsewhere on other tracks.

Its a hard beast to fight and like you said there are lots of trainers out there who would much rather ship to the local auction house for meat money rather than put up with having to list the horse to rehome and try and find it

I truly hope that trainers don’t just think sending the horse to the slaughter pipeline is going to guarantee it a home with a rescue either. There are plenty of crazies out there driving the slaughter horse pen rescue efforts right now but there are many horses in those pens who are not even listed or pictured by the Kill Buyer and just direct ship. There are thousands of horses every week on these crazy facebook posts that never do find “rescue” homes so I sincerely hope that these trainers don’t just start playing that game. I’m almost willing to bet a lot of these shady trainer sship direct to the kill buyer to dispose of rather than shipping them to the local kill sale; afraid of being investigated

And I agree that the QH industry is much more worrisome in terms of the crap that they breed and overproduce and ship across the border every single day. But they are an organization that has come right out there and supported killing off their culls at kill sales and if you’re a paying member of that organization; you might as well agree with their point of views.

[ThirdCharm]

[QUOTE=beaulilly;8972598]
Glad they found homes!

That running stag mare on the Ocala website looks very much like my mare by running stag. Bet she’s a nice one![/QUOTE]

She has been at my barn 3 weeks and went to a show yesterday to hang out, ended up going xc schooling and jumped half the training level course like a trooper. Even dropped into water and did a half-coffin. She’s BIG and a nice mover, good brain, very pleasant to ride.

Jennifer

[Simkie]

If anyone is interested, Annamonarchos is available. Saw this pop up on FB today.

[awaywego]

Apologies for intentionally resurrecting this very old thread, but this warhorse mare is in need of a soft landing. Harriet is now 16 and has had one foal but no post track training. She is incredibly sweet and gorgeous with clean legs and an amazing topline. Harry the Hat is known for throwing great sport horses (and there are not many of his kids left in thie world). I would love to breed her myself to keep the Harry line going, and get a beautfiul WB cross, but it’s not in the cards for me. Despite my best efforts, I do not own her - I am just worried about the future for a 16 year old broodmare. She is located in NJ now. I am happy to put anyone interested in contact with the current owner.

[quote=“snaffle1987, post:70, topic:420863”] HARRIETS RYTHYM: Here is another mare in PA with over 30 starts to her resume. She is well bry by Harry the Hat (Seattle Slew x Affirmed) and out of a mare by Rythym (Mr Prospector). She is retiring with career earnings over 118,000. She is a cute mover too

CANTER USA

[/quote]

[halla]

The link didn’t work for me, can you repost or send me her info?

[awaywego]

Sorry, that was the old Canter link/listing. I’ll send you a PM.