My instructor wants to teach my horse to go in a curb bit. For the past three years he’s been ridden in a snaffle.
So when western folks put a horse in his first curb bit, which bit is it?
Thx.
This was my choice:
http://www.easphotography.com/Tindur/SpadeBridle.jpg
Setup in two-rein like so:
http://www.easphotography.com/Tindur/TindurTwoReinPhoto.jpg
I would first ask, what kind of riding are you doing with your horse?
That will determine how you go about this.
Generally, when a horse was working one handed in a bosal or snaffle, we also took the bridle off to double check that he really was in self carriage and listening to all other aids well, then we went generally to a plain grazing curb, that by it’s action demands one handed riding.
What kind of shanks and purchase and mouth piece, that depends on what the horse’s mouth demands.
Some horses have “tight” mouths, some long, some short, some low palates you want to accommodate, etc.
The later years, a choice of many is the “correction” type bits, that are somewhat more flexible than a stiff plain curb, so you can also ride in them two handed if you have to.
I would stay away with any kind of snaffle mouth with shanks, unless for very specific purposes, like barrel racers use some such curbs with some gag action for their discipline, or spade type bits with big, fancy port buildups, unless the horse has been specifically trained for that kind of California vaquero riding, which takes years and even some of such trained horses never get as far in that training to wear those.
[QUOTE=Bluey;7035521]
I would first ask, what kind of riding are you doing with your horse?
That will determine how you go about this.
.[/QUOTE]
Just short trail rides for pleasure. 
I’ve been doing a little reading, and I think I want a solid mouthpiece with a low port and short, swept-back shanks that swivel so I can do things with one rein if need be. Conjure used to have a pretty spectacular spook and spin, which we’ve worked on for the past year by teaching a one rein stop in the arena. (By ORS I mean the kind where you teach the horse to yield and practice it often and gently - not the pulley rein kind where you rip his head around. ) Do you think that would be an appropriate bit for what I want to do?
My horse is pretty much the standard 15.1 hh QH. I don’t know how to tell if he has a low palate or not. His vet/dentist has never mentioned anything unusual about his mouth.
ETA: The other day, my instructor looped a piece of rope under Conjure’s neck and rode him around the arena without using the bridle or reins. Then after that she started working with him outside the arena, riding him on the buckle in his snaffle. I guess she was checking to see if he was carrying himself and listening to the aids? Anyway, she said he did well.
After that, she said she wanted me to find him a mild curb so I could trail ride without keeping a contact. I asked her why I couldn’t just ride him in a snaffle on the buckle as she’s been doing around the property. She said that if something were to happen, she’d like me to be able to direct him more quickly than I’d be able to if I had to first gather up my reins and take a contact.
Naturally we plan on training him (and me) to the new bit in a few lessons before we head out into the big wide world with it.
You are working with a trainer, that knows you and your horse.
It would be hard from behind a computer screen, on some words, get a really accurate picture of what you, your horse and task may be and not fall on my face trying.
Have before assumed so much from words and then been completely wrong in what I thought was going on.:uhoh:
Lets say that you don’t have a really very technically trained horse, more the point and shoot kind that many use to enjoy themselves in trail rides.
Lets say you are a rider that can stay with a horse just fine, but also is not trained to handle one to the more exacting demands of many specific disciplines.
Many trail riding horses tend to be trained to respond to gross aids and with time and acres to do so.
They are not sharp and quick and ready to turn it on in a split second, because that is not what horse and rider need to do on the trail.
So, maybe this is a situation where the horse may not even have a really educated mouth or any other, so really a bit that can give some control and can be used with direct rein effect, as a snaffle, is best for that horse most of his life.
When some such horse may start getting a bit fresh, some train the horse further, some then go to a bit with more stop, a curb, but lose then the ability to use a direct rein properly.
I don’t think loose ring at the bottom or loose shanks will give you that direct rein you may want at times.
Double rein is for that, to use a curb for leverage and snaffle effect, either with an attachment at the mouthpiece, or two bit bridles, as in higher end dressage training.
The loose shanks are for a little more or less signaling of the bit, still not for direct rein.
Curbs and the leverage action those are defined by don’t work that way, even if so very many use them like that.
Horses just make do, ignore the conflicting signals.
“Noisy” bits of any kind many times are more confusing than helpful, as those curb bits and loose ring snaffles can be for many horses.
Then you may find the occasional horse that prefers them.
Is your horse well trained enough to handle one rein properly?
Is your trainer thinking you and your horse need a bit more “whoa” and that is why a curb?
We can write whole books about bits and all that can be said about them, have more opinions on those than all the people that use them and horses that wear them and still be wrong when it comes to one specific situation we read about on an internet post.
I think it is great you ask, because discussing all this in the end will help you, your horse and all those of all of us that read here.
Riding well is not only about hours on a horse, but about the concepts behind why we do what we do.
[QUOTE=Bluey;7035588]
Lets say that you don’t have a really very technically trained horse, more the point and shoot kind that many use to enjoy themselves in trail rides.
Lets say you are a rider that can stay with a horse just fine, but also is not trained to handle one to the more exacting demands of many specific disciplines.
Many trail riding horses tend to be trained to respond to gross aids and with time and acres to do so.
They are not sharp and quick and ready to turn it on in a split second, because that is not what horse and rider need to do on the trail.
So, maybe this is a situation where the horse may not even have a really educated mouth or any other, so really a bit that can give some control and can be used with direct rein effect, as a snaffle, is best for that horse most of his life.
When some such horse may start getting a bit fresh, some train the horse further, some then go to a bit with more stop, a curb, but lose then the ability to use a direct rein properly.
I don’t think loose ring at the bottom or loose shanks will give you that direct rein you may want at times.
Double rein is for that, to use a curb for leverage and snaffle effect, either with an attachment at the mouthpiece, or two bit bridles, as in higher end dressage training.
The loose shanks are for a little more or less signaling of the bit, still not for direct rein.
Curbs and the leverage action those are defined by don’t work that way, even if so very many use them like that.
Horses just make do, ignore the conflicting signals.
“Noisy” bits of any kind many times are more confusing than helpful, as those curb bits and loose ring snaffles can be for many horses.
Then you may find the occasional horse that prefers them.
Is your horse well trained enough to handle one rein properly?
Is your trainer thinking you and your horse need a bit more “whoa” and that is why a curb?
.[/QUOTE]
Yes, I’d say that’s a pretty accurate description of my horse’s and my abilities.
At home I most often ride alone, around our farm where there are deer and turkey and bobcat and four-wheelers and such. But now that I have a trailer I’d also like to be able to travel to group trail rides, where there might be more horses and riders than we’re used to.
So it’s possible my trainer thinks a curb bit would be a good idea to give us more “whoa” if we should need it. Conjure has a great stop in the ring. Most of the time all I have to do is stop moving with him and he stops, but if not I only have to use my ring fingers to put slight pressure on the reins. But the ring is different from the big wide world.
Another reason may be that she mentioned she’d like to teach Conjure to neck rein. Maybe she’s planning to do that, to see if we can handle one rein properly?
Anyway, from your response I understand that the swivel shanks are not there to let me keep the ability to use direct rein cues, right? If I want that ability, I need two sets of reins, correct?
So for my purposes, it sounds like a grazing bit with fixed shanks would be better?
Thanks very much for the detailed response!:)
When it comes to “neck reining”, there are several different types, according to who you ask.
Most that train and show consider neck reining a horse so finely attuned to the aids, all of them, your weight changes by where you look, your seat, your leg and hands, your voice, that you can guide it practically without reins.
When you use your reins, the ideal is to keep your hand in an imaginary 4" box and the mere movement in that, with drapey reins, the horse will respond to that first as a half halt, a signal that means “horse pay attention” and the bit of direction you are indicating there and with any other aid you use, then move any one way it has learned to respond.
The reins themselves may or not really be indicating that much where they may be touching the neck.
The reins used for that tend to have some heft to them, so their weight help the signaling and don’t flap around and become “noisy” at times, so the horse has to learn to ignore them at times.
That generally is what you find in the more advanced arena performance horses.
The basis of that kind of neck reining is ALL your aids and what your horse has learned and it’s extremely attuned attitude and responses to those.
Then some consider “neck reining” a horse that, regardless what else you use for aids, if you move your hand where the rein pushes on the neck, the horse moves away from it to change directions, separate of any other you may do.
I have heard some teach that by all kinds of ways and wondered how horses finally figured what the human wanted, like crossing the reins under the neck and pulling with the, say, right hand to the left across the horse’s neck, horse’s head pulled to the left by it’s nose and still expected to go right.
I have seen such horses try and try all kinds of ways of moving, until they figure what the rider wants because it quits pulling and then I think learn that when the rider leans this way, forget what it is doing with it’s reins, go that way.:lol:
Have seen and heard all goofy and strange ways of training and combinations of those, “neck reining” is not the only one, but it is one that has it’s shares of those.
If we want, we can teach a horse to back by pulling on it’s tail, a bit hard to do from horseback, but yes, we can teach any and all, just have to see if what we teach does really make sense for the horse and for what we intend to do with it.
I have learned to always ask exactly what they mean when someone wants to train or do something, to be sure all are on the same page.
[QUOTE=aktill;7035535]
Definitely avoid the snaffle mouthpieces:
http://www.markrashid.com/trouble_with_tom_thumb.htm[/QUOTE]
A Tom Thumb is not a good bit, but not all snaffle mouthpiece curb bits are bad. An Argentine is a great little bit, especially for a horse that is used to being ridden in a snaffle. Consider an Argentine. My mare loves hers.http://weaverleather.shptron.com/p/professional-antiqued-argentine-bit-5-sweet-iron-polished-snaffle-mouth-with-copper-inlay?pp=8
A curb with swivel is just too much for her, just way too busy. She does almost as well in a mullen mouth sweetwater type of bit. http://www.coloradosaddlery.com/ez-catalog/X338914/125/25-707 or even a curb with tongue relief. http://weaverleather.shptron.com/p/professional-antiqued-argentine-bit-5-sweet-iron-polished-medium-port-mouth-with-copper-inlay?pp=8 I have had a lot of horses like any one of the above bits.
Good luck.
[QUOTE=craz4crtrs;7036288]
A Tom Thumb is not a good bit, but not all snaffle mouthpiece curb bits are bad. An Argentine is a great little bit, especially for a horse that is used to being ridden in a snaffle. Consider an Argentine. My mare loves hers.http://weaverleather.shptron.com/p/professional-antiqued-argentine-bit-5-sweet-iron-polished-snaffle-mouth-with-copper-inlay?pp=8[/url[/QUOTE]
There’s no meaningful mechanical difference between a Tom Thumb and Argentine.
[QUOTE=aktill;7036509]
There’s no meaningful mechanical difference between a Tom Thumb and Argentine.[/QUOTE]
We have to disagree on this one. That’s like calling a Pelham a Tom Thumb. Not the same. A true Tom Thumb is straight through the purchase and shanks and they tend to flip up and pinch. The Argentine has a swept back shank and responds differently. That makes it a different bit than a Tom Thumb. Horses that really like their snaffles very often like an Argentine.
I think maybe I should say that I have ridden all my horses in plain snaffles, old or young and add a little curb bit if we are in the mood to relax and ride one handed on the trail or something. So, my first bit on choice is a plain snaffle. My second is one of the above depending on the particular horse I am riding on that particular day.
I am not a trainer or an instructor, but I have owned and ridden quite a few horses over the years. This works for me, but it isn’t for every person or horse.
[QUOTE=craz4crtrs;7036689]
We have to disagree on this one. That’s like calling a Pelham a Tom Thumb. Not the same.[/QUOTE]
I’ll admit a mistake on my part, and that was to say there’s no mechanical difference. There is, as you said. A swept shank a la a Sonora-type cheek will have a slower action (ie greater hand movement required for the same bit movement) than a straight cheek.
What I meant to say is that the flaw in the Tom Thumb is that the reins are attached to the shank of a broken mouth bit (as Mark Rashid elocutes so well above), and so there’s no HORSEMANSHIP advantage to an Argentine over a Tom Thumb. Likwise for a broken mouth Pelham ridden off the curb rein alone (or with a single-rein converter).
The advantage of a pelham (though they’re no favorite of mine) would be that there are plenty of mullen mouth pelhams, and pelhams are almost always ridden with a rein attached to the ring by the bit cannons (allowing for a pure snaffle direct-rein action). Mullen pelhams ridden double reined would be a legitimate option for a horse that can’t take the two bits of a proper english double.
A curb bit is properly ridden single handed. Any attempt to direct rein a curb is to misunderstand the point of a leverage bit (which is to ask for longitudinal flexion). Asking for a longitudinal flexion directly is the realm of a more finished horse.
So, to the OP, if you’re still needing to pull a one rein stop on occasion, stay in the snaffle. Likewise, there’s nothing to stop one from learning to ride single handed in a snaffle. You can’t really refine bending/lateral flexion to any meaningful degree in a leverage bit (hence why the two-rein exists).
This works because like you said, by crossing the rein, when you “rein left” with crossed reins it actually tightens the left rein. Doesn’t actually help the horse much when the reins are uncrossed however!
Good discussion, please continue!
Just wanted to let y’all know that I got a 5" grazing bit with 3" shanks (fixed, swept-back), a 1.5" purchase, and a low port. I wasn’t able to ride this morning because I had appointments, but my instructor worked with one of the students who rides Conjure with the new equipment.
He went really well in it. Instructor says that’s why she wanted to try him in a curb - she thought he would enjoy being ridden without a contact. And he certainly seemed very happy. I’m told he was a western horse before I bought him.
Student just worked on walk trot canter without a contact (new for her), keeping a nice loop in the reins; transitions; and halt. The rein cue for halt was to lift one hand and use the other to slide down both reins to the neck. Steering was accomplished by leg aids only at this point - we’ll work on neck-reining later.
A qualified success. I have to take my reins back and get some longer ones. My curb strap is also too short. And we’re not quite sure if the bit is wide enough.
How much bit should there be on either side of the mouth? I have about a half-inch on either side of his teeth, but Conjure has Angelina-Jolie-like lips, so there’s not that much bit on either side of his mouth?
Thanks so much for all your advice and for sharing your knowledge. I’m going to go back and read all the posts more thoroughly when I have a little more time. It’s Monday morning here at my office.
[QUOTE=pAin’t_Misbehavin’;7036874]
How much bit should there be on either side of the mouth? I have about a half-inch on either side of his teeth, but Conjure has Angelina-Jolie-like lips, so there’s not that much bit on either side of his mouth?[/QUOTE]
Doesn’t need to be much on a solid jaw bit, unless you plan to use an underbridle bosal. On a loose jaw or snaffle bit a little clearance is required to avoid pinching, but a solid jaw doesn’t have that risk.
Standard advice to learn how any bit may work in a horse’s mouth, take the bridle by the cheek pieces in one hand and hold it up in front of you.
Then grab the bit with your other hand with four fingers over it, thumb under.
Now have someone, a “rider”, guide you by the reins from behind and see how the bit is working in your “mouth”.
You will then see why horses get confused so many times we want to “guide” them just by our hands on the reins.
If you have a snaffle, the one behind should use one rein at the time, then both to stop and back you.
You will find how that snaffle, if you can, try some other than just two piece ones, how those move as the reins move, how the nutcracker effect applies and if the middle lifts it can poke in the palate, etc.
Also you may see an important difference with loose o ring and D ring snaffles.
D ring snaffles are very straightforward but also still and stiff there, O ring ones you get a pre-signal, but also have to ignore them when your walking alone sets them to wiggling.
With the curb, you may find very hard to understand what the “rider” behind you is asking of you if it is using one rein at the time, because the bit will turn this way and that and not really give you any indication where to go.
It will be clear when it means to stop.
With drapey reins, heavier kind of reins, you will also feel subtle movements well before the bit even engages.
Now, if you have any kind of broken mouthpiece and shanks, all bets will be off.
Those bits won’t work twice the same with contact, will wiggle this and that way at will and you really will be confused what the “rider” behind you wants you to do.
Once you take contact off, on drapey reins, well, then you really are listening to other than the bit action itself, so for most horses, what kind of bit, snaffle, curb or broken mouth curb, that won’t make much difference, any of them will work, some better than others, depending on the rider and horse’s training.
NOW, important, remember that is your hand on those bits, with your brain “reading” what is there and is not.
Imagine now that is a horse’s sensitive mouth, but less than clear thinking mind, the horse just doesn’t get that you want contact or receiving the energy from behind for more collection or any other we are after.
Horses are clueless about why we are asking this or that and have to struggle when it comes to figure what all this is we are doing now, having to try to guess at the proper response, at what is going on there, with only your help to decide what to do and what do you want every time you wiggle the reins or pull on them.:eek:
If nothing else, that kind of try at reading bits thru your hands will give you a start in how they may work, then experience will help you refine how all that works for you and the horses you ride.
We do that kind of bit lesson with 4H kids and it opens a whole new world for them, you can see them after that being way more sensitive to all they do with horses, not just how they handle reins.
There is also much laughing and fun to be had being the “rider” or “horse”.
Kids now understand all we do with horses, not just our hands on the reins, is about trying to communicate and watching for responses, in a way they never thought about before, took for granted that they already knew.
Works for adults also.
[QUOTE=aktill;7036966]
Doesn’t need to be much on a solid jaw bit, unless you plan to use an underbridle bosal. On a loose jaw or snaffle bit a little clearance is required to avoid pinching, but a solid jaw doesn’t have that risk.[/QUOTE]
Makes sense, now that I think about it. Thanks!
Bluey, that sounds like a good exercise. I’ll get someone to be my partner and try it next time I’m at the barn. Today my instructor did something similar, to demonstrate to the student how to ask for halt. She had me hold a pair of reins in my hands while she walked behind me. Then she demonstrated the difference in pulling back to stop versus lifting one hand and sliding the other down to the “neck” [in my case, my back]. The latter way was much nicer and less jarring.
Instructor is going to ride him Wednesday and introduce him to neck-reining.
Thanks again everybody. I’m excited to be learning something new!
Just wanted to update y’all - instructor rode him yesterday and tried neck-reining him for the first time.
He’s already been taught, with groundwork, that if someone waves a bat or crop up and down in a rhythmic motion then he should move away from the area where the bat/crop is. So, when instructor laid the rein against the side of his neck, she also moved her bat in that way about a foot away from his neck. And used the regular leg aids to keep the rest of his body where it should be.
I think Conjure had probably neck-reined before. At first, he had the kind of look on his face that you get when you’re trying to place someone you haven’t seen in a long time. After ten or fifteen minutes, instructor was getting him to go both forwards and backwards on a circle just by neck-reining and leg/seat aids.
In fact, he looks so much happier with this bit - not just when riding, but when we’re tacking up he even seems more relaxed - that now I’m shopping for a western saddle. We’ve done things my way (hunt seat) for four years, so I think it’s only fair we try his former discipline for awhile.
Good for you!
Many horses learn the difference if you are riding one way or doing one thing or another and adapt to it fine.
After you refresh his western riding, you can still use both, he will not forget his other you have taught him.
Just be clear when you ask what you ask for.
Training is so much fun and you are there now.
Thanks, Bluey. I rode him today for the first time in the curb bit with the 10 foot (one piece) reins. I’m afraid at first I was all thumbs - but Conjure was very forgiving. He has such a nice attitude with this bit!
When I got him out of the paddock this morning, it was a little cool for us for this time of year (65F or so, low humidity) and I could tell he was feeling a little fresh. Normally I’d have lunged first, but I thought I’d just do a few groundwork exercises and hop on - to see if the curb bit/no contact made a difference.
And it certainly did! He was very relaxed and the worst he did was creep around a little when he should have been halted. Big improvement!
Now I went and bought a western saddle.
A Big Horn synthetic. Only weighs about 20 lbs. Conjure and I are trying it out tomorrow.
