Which collagen supplement?

[Lieslot]

My goodness, I do not understand all this collagen stuff. Hydrolyzed collagen, gelatin, type I, type II, undenatured, bovine derived, chicken derived… in short ‘help’.

I want to add a collagen supplement.
Why, well last week I posted about my one gelding with fetlocks dropping during weightbearing, some kind poster re-directed me once more to the dsld website and it seems PromotionEQ has a helpful effect on suspensories, primarily thanks to the hydrolyzed collagen.

I don’t just want to add yet again another supplement without knowing what I’m doing. The promotioneq reads great, but they add manganese & zinc, yet no copper. Sure there’s a valid reason for it, but okay nevertheless questioning it.

However, so many other supps also contain either hydrolyzed collagen or type II collagen or gelatin or undenatured collagen.
So where’s the difference in it all.

I found the 2006 study and there it was said they used 60gm of gelatin, yet all sups contain at the most 5gm of hydrolyzed collagen .

Uckele’s Lubrigen contains hydrolyzed collagen, so does the Adeptus Augment, apparently theirs triple patented etc, GrandHA has Biocell II and even SmartGut has hydrolyzed collagen. Few mention the type or whether it’s bovine vs chicken derived.
From what I read chicken sternum derived (yukh when I come to think of it), seems to be most desirable .

Thoughts, experiences, thanks!

[Stacy_Ace]

Collagen ?

I’m new to taking collagen myself. ( I order a Japanese product called Milcolla), but maybe I can start to answer your question.

Collagen is a protein created in the body to basically keep itself glued together. There are different types of collagen produced. Some focus on some parts of the body, whereas other types do other.

I believe Type I is for skin, bones and organs.
Type II is cartilage.

Bovine/Swine and Fish I don’t recall reading anything that made one source or another better, but I have read about collagen blends. Possibly different collagen blend better with different sources?

The gelatin/hydrolysis bit- I believe when collagen is broken down into into a simple form gelatin is produced via hydrolysis. As to what benefits you would receive in regards to gelatin/hydrolysis ration I have no idea.

I hope this helps some.

[cleozowner]

Collagen is not very digestible–or, even if the gut does break it down, it’s not absorbing giant ropey collagen molecules–just the amino acids. Wouldn’t your horse benefit equally well from an amino acid supplement? (Or no supp at all.)

[RAyers]

There are 28 different types of collagen that make up tissue. While the predominant forms are Type I (mineralizing tissues) and Type II other form the basement membranes, are necessary for the proper organization of Type I (e.g. Type IX, XXI etc.).

As noted, collagen is not digestible nor does the body simple take collagen from the gut and put it in a tissue. Collagen is synthesized at the cellular level (chondrocytes, tenocytes, fibroblasts,…) from amino acids. Hydrolyzed collagen is basically amino acids and is one of the breakdown processes occurring in the stomach.

Also, collagen is collagen, regardless of species. Chicken is no different than fish, cow, horse or person. You can just as easily eat a human femur to accomplish the same as these companies claim.

Eating collagen will not fix anything. It is another marketing ploy based on inaccurate understanding of biology and how tissues are formed.

[Lieslot]

Thanks everyone, eventually decided on the BioCell Type II. There seems enough evidence for collagen to be asborbed at least in the bloodstream and some clinical trials improving comfort in humans, so worth a try.
The Biocell has a lower molecular weight so thought to improve absorption and has 10% HA, which means no more need to add oral HA.

Passed on the undenatured collagen, eventhough it has a supportive study, absorption very low and works differently, thought to work via the immune system.

I did find a study of fish collagen used in equine adipose tissue, but only understood half (as usual, lol)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21076963

[RAyers]

The paper you reference has NOTHING to do with ingested collagen. Specific cells were removed from the body and cultured in a petri dish in the presence of collagen fragments. This paper is about tissue engineering NOT diet.

This is an example of how you can not infer one thing (eating collagen) from another (direct cellular differentiation with explicitly placed collagen).

[Lieslot]

Did realize that it was not orally & outside the body, would be wishfull thinking that ingestion could give similar result, I understand.
But there is something to it though, in mice oral ingestion was shown to have an effect on bone formation.

[kookicat]

Mice are omnivores. Horses aren’t.

[cleozowner]

Find the papers and post them! I’d love to read.
Your horse is going to be pooping out undigested collagen, I’m afraid. The body does NOT absorb whole collagen molecules, no matter how small they are. Amino acids (or very, very small peptides, like 3 amino acids) are the only way the body will get it.

This is a good thing, if you think about it–do you want big molecules from bacteria, etc being absorbed? And I don’t want collagen flowing through my bloodstream.

[Lieslot]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19895915 (mice)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16076145 (absorption)
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jf9031487
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12203036
http://www.naturalnews.com/007938.html (safety)
http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=16378(UC however - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20444013)
http://www.fittime.com/ws_fittime/v3/pdfs/FORTIGEL-Flechsenhar(2005)(English-version).pdf
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18576295 (safety/efficacy type ii chicken humans)

Sure, the story is, there are no studies of oral hydrolyzed collagen used in horses (other than the Gupta, see above), so one has to go by what is out there and make out if there is a ‘probability’ it could be helpful, to me seems there is. But sure, I might be living in lala-land, lol.

I was not interested in it before, until I read it here http://www.horseshoes.com/anatomy/esad/information/dsldanddietary/dsldanddietary.htm
They saw positive results, I have yet to find other negative than nausea in humans, so what have I got to lose?
I just wanted to understand the difference between the HC’s out there, because I was not familiar with it, and see if it makes some sense to add it.
I don’t want to keep adding stuff, he’s already on a vit/min supplement and I question why the particular sup adds mangese & zinc, no copper.

Is there anything out there that fixes the uncureables today? No, but one can at least try to maintain what is still okay.

[RAyers]

Is there anything out there that fixes the uncureables today? No, but one can at least try to maintain what is still okay.

By that statement alone, a good diet, proper exercise, judicious, a well considered show schedule is all you need. Hence, you are already doing what needs to be done.

Supplementation is a relatively new phenomena and the is continuing evidence that people are OVER supplementing. The industry is all based on hearsay and anecdotes (as evidenced by your last link) with very loose associations with various studies. For example, your link described as “safety/efficacy type ii chicken humans” has nothing to do with anything as it is for an autoimmune disease and it is not considered as a treatment other than slowing the disease and as an alternative to methotrexate - which is a brutal drug. They did no real safety, e.g. doseage, pharmokinectics testing.

All of your links indicate collagen supplementation has little to no use other than providing a dietary source of amino acids (e.g. your second link). It seems to me that you are trying to justify giving something that most likely will not do anything.

[Lieslot]

All of your links indicate collagen supplementation has little to no use other than providing a dietary source of amino acids (e.g. your second link). It seems to me that you are trying to justify giving something that most likely will not do anything.

No, not wanting to justify it, just that when I read this on some sites which one would think to be trustable, like horse.com or the dsld website, I figured there might something to it.
But I have certainly learned from many on COTH, it isn’t all golddust nor magical cure, so I certainly appreciate your answer.
The links are just what I read, I took some conclusions from that, someone asked to post them, I did, not trying to prove anything, other than not wanting to feel totally stupid for having thought it may have its place or may have some benefits.

So how does one know all necessary amino acids are met. Just as an example, I compared several multi vit/min sup, some will have added l-proline others will not. Doesn’t help that some may have it, just not list it.

The industry is all based on hearsay and anecdotes (as evidenced by your last link) with very loose associations with various studies. For example, your link described as “safety/efficacy type ii chicken humans” has nothing to do with anything as it is for an autoimmune disease and it is not considered as a treatment other than slowing the disease and as an alternative to methotrexate - which is a brutal drug. They did no real safety, e.g. doseage, pharmokinectics testing.

Okay, I would not have understood that, I read safe as really safe.

[deltawave]

Horses can manufacture their own proline from raw materials. It is not necessary to supplement it.

Really, a proper diet, great hoof care, avoidance of bad footing and keeping the animal fit and in good weight is probably ENORMOUSLY more powerful and beneficial than feeding it expensive forms of protein that it can’t make use of anyhow.

[LookmaNohands]

I starting taking a collagen supplement before Christmas. Now my skin looks better, feels better, my hair did not dry out as much this winter as usual and other people have noticed.

Soooo . . . ?

[TWH_Girl]

OP, I say give it a shot. It’s safe and you have nothing to lose. Science is rarely exact and is constantly, constantly evolving. If you feel it may help, then try it. Let us know what your results are.

[Scribbler]

[QUOTE=henryrice;8674492]
Hi,
The collagen supplements are really helpful and beneficial as this is a natural occurring protein which helps to build the blocks for skin, tendons, organs, bones etc. Kollagen intensive is one of the beneficial product which helps to make the skin beautiful and is clinically proved.
See more on: http://anti-aging-solutions.tumblr.com/[/QUOTE]

LOL. You did post this as a joke, yes?

[Ghazzu]

[QUOTE=henryrice;8674492]
Hi,
The collagen supplements are really helpful and beneficial as this is a natural occurring protein which helps to build the blocks for skin, tendons, organs, bones etc. Kollagen intensive is one of the beneficial product which helps to make the skin beautiful and is clinically proved.
See more on: http://anti-aging-solutions.tumblr.com/[/QUOTE]

I don’t believe the OP’s reason for wanting to supplement collagen was for facial wrinkles.

[joiedevie99]

Spammer has bumped a 4 year old thread.

[TWH_Girl]

Got me…

[Scribbler]

oops. me too. Gotta read those dates!!!