Which one based on pedigree?

Hello,

I got sent information about two foals that are both by the same sire, a son of Caletto I x Lord x Antonio (Anblick xx).

Both horses are out of TB dams, the dams are:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/oriental+sea
A full sister to http://www.pedigreequery.com/blue+street2 but she is not in de pedigreequery.

Which of the two foals has the best breeding from a riding horse point of view please?
I know there is much more to be considered like conformation but I just wanted to focus on the pedigrees here.
Thank you for your input.

The same breeder also has a TB filly for sale. This is her sire:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/stowaway2
This is the sire of her dam:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/great+palm
And this the sire of her grandam:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/executive+perk

Both are interesting but I would have to go with the second mare in the OP since the interesting bloodines are in the 3rd generation. Have to get back to the 4th and 5th for me in the first mare.

I’d want Oriental Sea. Superlative tail female. The Sire’s damline is equally superlative. Acatenango is Dark Ronald Tail Male, and he’s a GREAT German TB who is beginning to show up in sport horses. He has seven or eight approved sons in different registries. I seem to recall that Fannie Mae’s TB mare is either a daughter or granddaughter of Acatenango. I like the inbreeding to Lis, in the tail male sire and sire’s tail female. Golden Bowl was bred by Paul Mellon, and owned by the Firestones; and her daughter in GB, Orange Bowl got sent to Germany, where she was bred to Acatenango twice, Big Shuffle 4 times, and Lando once. Both Mellon and the Firestones are/were extremely knowledgeable horse people. Oriental Flower was also the dam of Oriental Tiger who was one of the best race horses in Germany. Oriental Flower was killed by lightning in 2007, and Oriental Tiger (2003) died in 2008 in his stall. News story that I found said cause was unknown.

Big Shuffle exported to Germany for TB breeding, and he has had at least one Hanoverian approved TB grandson.

This mare is filled to the brim with black type–and one thing about TBs is that the better bred they are in general, the better they are likely to be for sport. These horses have athleticism bred in. German racing is still turf, and German horses are bred for that. They are the OLD style TB, and as such, they are increasingly being exported to the UK and Ireland to add soundness and stamina.

By the way, this is the granddam of the TB filly: http://www.pedigreequery.com/minor+tantrum
I like that filly but I think it would be better if the owner would sell her for a racehorse and not a riding horse.

Thank you very much for your input Vineyridge! A lot of it I did not know. So you think the lines of the dam would match nicely with the Rantzau, Cottage Son (twice), Ladykiller and Anblick lines in the sire? A little further back in the sire’s pedigree there is also Furioso.

http://www.lando-world.de/index.php?page=startseite&lang=en
http://www.reines-de-course.com/Articles/Articles%20S/Schwarzblaurot.htm
http://www.reines-de-course.com/son-in-law.htm
http://pedigreeconsultants.com/_blog/Pedigree_Consultants_Blog/tag/Birkhahn/
I am sorry but this is in German: http://www.hippologi.com/acatenango.htm

Some advice that may help you. It’s common knowledge here that Great Palm’s have breathing issues. I’ve only been on one myself and breathing wasn’t her issue. Obviously all won’t be afflicted but that is what you hear. May make zero difference in what you’re looking for.

Executive Perk’s are nice horses and you will see crossovers especially for eventing.

I think Stowaway is newish and have heard nothing about his progeny good or bad.

Terri

Thank you Equilibrium for your help.

This is what I found about Stowaway:
http://www.montjeu.com/archives/346
http://bloodstock.racingpost.com/stallionbook/stallion.sd?horse_id=455464&popup=1&tab=details

By the way, the Holsteiner sire of the two foals out of TB dams is out of holst stamm 6372.

Great Palm’s pedigree is fabulous for sport. The dam of Manila is out of a Le Fableaux daughter. Though I don’t actually recall any Manilas in sport so that would be important to know. The dam side of Great Palm is full of wonderful horses. Al Hattab brings The Axe and Abernant and Big Game. The dam side is very good too with Bold Commander, a good son to see from Bold Ruler (and Ambiorix grandson), then the dam side is Crafty Admiral. But, as you see the pedigree itself can get you in trouble if you dont know the individual horse’s issues to be aware of. When I know of wealnesses in conformation, health or pedigree I don;t rule out a horse, instead I would examine the individual and look for the weaknesses to not be present in that horse. For example if I had a Raise a Native I would want a line that had shown physical toughness and very correct conformation. I would LOVE to see a TB colt brought on from Great Palm especially knowing it was throughly cleared for Great Palms problems. Honestly all the pedigrees you have listed are good for sport and that is as far as I would use them unless I was deliberately line breeding a charecter. They are many well used sport horse bloodlines. Pato

You really can’t do much better TBwise than Hotfoot. Tail Male grandsire of Stan The Man.

If the horses are old enough to evaluate for sport right now, that’s what you should do unless you are going to go into the breeding end of things.

Two of the horses are foals and one (the TB) is a yearling. I am looking at these horses from a riding and breeding point of few. However one of the foals is a colt so I don’t think I would be able to leave him a stallion. Don’t know if it would be worth it.

There is also this guy by Stan the Man’s sire Tachypous, a son of Hotfoot:
http://www.dressage.be/node/155

I found some info on Manila:
http://fmitchell07.wordpress.com/2009/03/02/champion-manila-shows-challenge-of-breeding/
His picture:
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/horse/10070072/399/Horse_Manila-big.jpg

Personally I love GP’s pedigree. Have seen some nice types by him. I think Noel Meade had a reall good one by him. For years now from trainers and buyers have heard about the wind issues. Can’t confirm any if it but he’s never really set the place on fire with his stock. Could have been the mares. Personally I don’t want to breed from any stock which has wind problems. But to each his own. Been on some very good horses that couldn’t breathe properly.

Are you finding these horses in Holland? About 6 years ago I was asked by one of the largest studs over there where they could buy TB mares. I wasn’t believed that such things could happen but there you go. Now it would be easy to get actual quality for little money compared to the boom years. Really nice mare in Goffs from Plot Blue’s family, close up as well. I’d say 5-10k would buy her.

Terri

I found these in Ireland. In Holland TB’s are a rather rare breed but there are a few registered TB stallions for warmblood breeding. I have also been looking at horses with a lot of TB blood in Germany en Belgium.
For me it is very hard to know and find out a lot about the TB lines in the horses. Maybe it would be better to just buy a Dutch bred foal by Roven xx. If I can find one bred out of a nice mare.
This one is for sale in the Netherlands:
http://www.paardenfokken.nl/pedigree.php?header=false&horseid=694069&maxniveau=6
A picture of his TB sire Albaran (very good looking TB!):
http://www.trakehnerfreun.de/img/horses/Albaran_DK.jpg

This TB stallion has the German lines / Wild risk and Nasrullah lines again:
http://www.trakehners-international.com/handorf_app10_19.html
Honestly, I can’t see the forest for the trees anymore. There seem to be so many nice horses.

So Goffs has a mare from this female family?
http://www.allevarecavalli.com/pedigree.php?horseid=2161&maxniveau=6

Yup, here she is:

http://www.pedigreequery.com/wellvita

Not as close as I thought, but direct damline none the less and a very solid performing family. Going now to get the catalog page for you.

http://www.goffs.com/pdf/goffs/231/823.pdf

Terri

Thank you, I found the page. I looked up a picture of Vettori, her sire but I think he has a rather downhill conformation.

I’ve seen all types by Vettori actually. A pedigree is only as good as the horse in front of you in regards to what you want to do. It will be fun to see what she is like as an individual.

Terri

Yes, it would be great fun to see how she looks and ofcourse she has a nice pedigree top and bottom. She carries a foal by Lawman.

Prices for horses at the moment are crazy. Someone I know recently bought a two year old Pivotal colt for Eur 3,500. So it is the time to buy but at the moment I do not have a lot of time so therefore I would rather buy a young horse. In a few years time, after I have finished my studies, I will have more time. In Germany one can buy very well bred mature point to point horses for next to nothing because a lot of people can’t pay the training fees of sometimes up to Eur 1,400 a month anymore. No wonder, those fees are enormous.

I found a picture of Stowaway, he looks like a nice horse.
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/horse/10102720/259/Horse_Stowaway-_2big.jpg
Deploy was also a nice horse:
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/horse/10038610/247/Horse_Deploy-_2big.jpg

I asked for the prices of these horses a while ago. The colt out of the Lando mare costs Eur 15,000.00, the filly out of the Deploy mare costs Eur 7,500.00 and the TB filly by Stowaway costs Eur 8,500.00. Being a cheapskate Dutchwoman :lol: I found these prices a bit too high. The horses are probably worth their prices but in this recession period I just do not want to spend much. The company I work for has announced a cutback in number of employees a while ago. It might be my turn to be sacked this time.