White "lipstick" and why is it desirable

[Jackie_Cochran]

I have gotten lipstick foam, riding Forward Seat. Not all the time, by any means, and not on all horses.

As to WHY I get foam riding Forward Seat, well I try to have a “conversation” between the horse’s tongue and my fingers. To have this “conversation” the horse’s tongue has to move the bit. Enough of this and some of the horses I ride produce the lipstick foam. I have NEVER, in over 45 years of riding gotten ropes of saliva dripping from the horse’s mouth, but then, when I even bother to use a nose band, I make sure I can get two or more vertical fingers between the nose band and the horse’s lower jaw bones.

When I get these “conversations” going with the horse my riding teacher always exclaims on how the horse’s jaw, neck and top line visibly relax. My seat feels the horse’s back "swinging. To me these “conversations” with the horse’s relaxed tongue are one of the supreme joys of riding. The horse’s jaw is relaxed, the tongue is relaxed and “playing” with the bit, the poll and neck relax, and the horse and I swing along with lightness, joy and happiness.

YMMV. I do not ride dressage, and with my MS my hands are not always as stable as they could be. Even so the horses are usually willing to “converse” with me through the bit and reins.

[Dressage_Strider]

@CHT

My question is WHY. Most answers I receive are vague like this and based on observation and not science/understanding.

But…it must be postural. Disciplines that reward a flatter/longer neck do not have the same infatuation with foam even though they value relaxation into the bit as well.

Tighter flexion at the pole? How the jaw lines up when “on the bit”?

Dressage seems to be the only discipline where we are asking the horse to accept the bit. In western, the horse is maintains a constant frame with head low to the ground, the bit appears to be used almost solely for steering, but these horses are primarily controlled by the rider’s seat and legs.

Jumping, the bit is used for brakes and steering, again, not a tool to supple and relax the horse

[Mondo]

If you look at pictures from the Aachen (ongoing now) you’ll notice that some horses have it and others don’t and all points in between. You can pick apart the rest of the picture to decide for yourself if it is related to relaxation and “frame” or if it’s just an individual horse thing.

[CHT]

@Dressage_Strider

Dressage seems to be the only discipline where we are asking the horse to accept the bit. In western, the horse is maintains a constant frame with head low to the ground, the bit appears to be used almost solely for steering, but these horses are primarily controlled by the rider’s seat and legs.

Jumping, the bit is used for brakes and steering, again, not a tool to supple and relax the horse

But a horse ridden “dressage” bitless will also get white lipstick. It CANNOT be the bit.

I think you might not really understand western though. A well trained western horse is also accepting the bit, but self carriage is expected to a higher degree. Many western bits are self correcting (weighted so that the horse feels the port if it comes off the vertical).

My conclusion based on responses:

1. Foam, lipstick and drool are the result of a neck posture that compromises the horse’s ability to swallow, (or could be a reaction to the materials in the bit that produces more saliva than the horse can deal with).
2. Foam and lipstick require the horse to have a mobile/relaxed tongue to “whip” the saliva (vs drool)
3. The degree to which the foam is developed has many factors that may include conformation, and may or may not be indicative of correct or incorrect riding.
4. Bits to encourage more saliva aren’t really beneficial.

So really it seems like it is odd that foam/lipstick seems to have any importance at all as an indicator, and that bits are marketed with special/expensive material to increase saliva.

[Cowgirl]

@CHT

But a horse ridden “dressage” bitless will also get white lipstick. It CANNOT be the bit.

I think you might not really understand western though. A well trained western horse is also accepting the bit, but self carriage is expected to a higher degree. Many western bits are self correcting (weighted so that the horse feels the port if it comes off the vertical).

My conclusion based on responses:

1. Foam, lipstick and drool are the result of a neck posture that compromises the horse’s ability to swallow, (or could be a reaction to the materials in the bit that produces more saliva than the horse can deal with).
2. Foam and lipstick require the horse to have a mobile/relaxed tongue to “whip” the saliva (vs drool)
3. The degree to which the foam is developed has many factors that may include conformation, and may or may not be indicative of correct or incorrect riding.
4. Bits to encourage more saliva aren’t really beneficial.

So really it seems like it is odd that foam/lipstick seems to have any importance at all as an indicator, and that bits are marketed with special/expensive material to increase saliva.

I think that pretty much sums it up, but what I want to say is that this, like so many things in dressage disucssions, is just a snapshot, just a tiny piece of the puzzle. To really tell if a horse is correct and through, you have to look at the whole picture, not just the horse’s mouth. I am a hind leg freak and if the hind legs are not pushing and carrying, and if the back isn’t swinging and the shoulders lifting, who cares what the mouth does…I find it odd that there is so much importance placed on mouth (both negative and positive) and so few discussion about the hind legs…

[meupatdoes]

If you ride a few horses and make lipstick you will figure it out.

Not all horses with soft, accepting mouths make lipstick, sure,
…but otoh not a single horse I have ever met who DID make lipstick had a tough mouth that ride.

You can have a soft mouth without lipstick, but you can’t have a tough mouth with it.

[MysticOakRanch]

@Cowgirl

.I find it odd that there is so much importance placed on mouth (both negative and positive) and so few discussion about the hind legs…

And head… I agree with your post, and then I see all these conversations about how the horse is “BTV”, it shouldn’t score above a 4, and my response is the same. Look at the big picture - if the horse is an 8 in every way except it is a bit BTV, why should it be scored a 4? Many people tend to get caught up in a single criteria. Dressage is about MANY different things - from a judging standpoint, that is very hard for people to learn. Look at it all, not just the head. From a training standpoint, I think the same applies!

[MysticOakRanch]

@meupatdoes

If you ride a few horses and make lipstick you will figure it out.

Not all horses with soft, accepting mouths make lipstick, sure,
…but otoh not a single horse I have ever met who DID make lipstick had a tough mouth that ride.

You can have a soft mouth without lipstick, but you can’t have a tough mouth with it.

I rode one… He was hard and heavy, and made fabulous lipstick. There are exceptions.

Now that I think about it - I rode two! One was a GP horse - great scores, great lipstick. Heaviest horse I’ve ever ridden. Rode him once and never again.

[Snowdenfarm]

My horse also makes lipstick when soft, but even when hard and heavy and will also bitless. Honestly, the only constant I have seen is that it comes when she is too compressed in the throatlatch. Honestly, I feel bad when it happens as it seems that it could be because she cannot swallow in that position. She does not get it when she is reaching and open. Just speaking for my particular horse.

[CHT]

I think the focus on lipstick or slobber is because it is quantifiable, and because it is able to turned into profit (through bits or treats to increase a wet mouth). Hind leg and back activity requires more of an educated eye and is harder to quantify.

This post was just based on curiosity after noticing both my mares get “lipstick” when ridden in a rope halter. a light bulb went off that it can’t be due to the metal or acceptance of the bit.

[outerbanks77]

@CHT

I think the focus on lipstick or slobber is because it is quantifiable, and because it is able to turned into profit (through bits or treats to increase a wet mouth). Hind leg and back activity requires more of an educated eye and is harder to quantify.

This post was just based on curiosity after noticing both my mares get “lipstick” when ridden in a rope halter. a light bulb went off that it can’t be due to the metal or acceptance of the bit.

Yes, to me it is just an affirmation of my observations during a ride. My last horse I started on my own was very dry-mouthed at first, and very immobile in her jaw. I was careful never to jam her up because she had a small jaw and thick throatlatch, but as she got fitter and more able to work over her back to the bit, she started showing a little saliva, and then some days a very light lipstick on dressage days. I was definitely always focused on her hind end during the ride, but the bit of foam was just a nice confirmation that the work was actually changing the horse and making her a little more mobile in the jaw.

Another horse I was riding has some bit/mouth issues and is pretty fussy in the mouth. She goes without a noseband and tends towards tension. With her, I would start getting foam on the days she was more elastic to the contact and giving me nicer stretchy trot and stretchy canter, so it definitely seemed to be correlated to her ability to produce forward, but relaxed work. Neither of these horses would foam so much that I would really notice it before dismounting, so I guess I don’t think of it as something to focus on, because there are lots of other things going on during the ride, and the foam is just an observation while untacking after.