Who is the Breeder?

[Bent_Hickory]

[QUOTE=S A McKee;6288162]
As an example for those of you that seem horrified by this screnario keep in mind that if I buy a custom foal or in utero I’m paying what amounts to stud fee and a lease on the mare yet I’m not the breeder because I did not own or lease the mare. Makes no difference that the in utero buyer may have set the breeding. You can’t make it fair for everyone.[/QUOTE]

I’ve done this twice and I am listed as the breeder on both sets of foal registration papers. It’s not rocket science.

[Somermist]

IMO, if you own or lease the mare at the time of breeding, you are the breeder. Period.

[Somermist]

[QUOTE=Bent Hickory;6288247]
I’ve done this twice and I am listed as the breeder on both sets of foal registration papers. It’s not rocket science.[/QUOTE]

:yes::yes:

[alexandra]

Well and to make it more complicated:
In Germany if owner of mare (as noted in the registry) agrees in writng to registry, another person can be considered and registered as breeder. (another person can be leasee, in utero buyer, grandmother whoever). Only thing needed the “breeder” has to send in writing that he/she resigns from bein breeder of this foal but that person b is to be considered breeder…

[Alagirl]

@alexandra;6288276

Well and to make it more complicated:
In Germany if owner of mare (as noted in the registry) agrees in writng to registry, another person can be considered and registered as breeder. (another person can be leasee, in utero buyer, grandmother whoever). Only thing needed the “breeder” has to send in writing that he/she resigns from bein breeder of this foal but that person b is to be considered breeder…

Sounds straightforward German to me.

[ljcfoh]

[QUOTE=ljcfoh;6287578]
I agree it is troubling and also very odd. I can’t imagine any sort of agreement and wonder if he was maybe not clear exactly what he was talking about? I still don’t know why the agreement would matter with the USEF because you truly could put anything down as breeder as there is no cross-check of any sort. I could buy your foal today and put down Charlie Brown and while I believe you could state your disagreement to who the breeder is, if I own it and record it you can’t change it unless I agree. If the USEF does have some sort of agreement it frankly seems to fly directly in the fact of collecting the breeding information at all.[/QUOTE]

**just to be clear: I was talking about when you register the animal with USEF ** Obviously, with the various breed registries I couldn’t put myself as breeder if I wasn’t

[ljcfoh]

[QUOTE=ise@ssl;6287936]
Here’s the scenario. A friend owned a mare and they had covered her with her stallion. Vet did not detect any pregnancy. Mare was offered for lease. Individuals who leased the mare were told that the mare had been covered and if it DID turn out that she was pregnant - the foal would belong to my friend. They agreed to that. They came back and said they wanted to buy and the mare and that “no” she was not showing any signs of being pregnant. Mare is sold. Fast forward …mare foals a filly. My friend notifies them that she is the legal owner of the foal. This goes a back and forth for months. The legal situation is on going. MY friend had notified the USEF that the current mare owner might attempt to get a HID for the filly and explained that the owner ship of the filly is hers.

As background the mare is a TB and the stallion that covered her is an Oldenburg approved by RPSI.
Friend finds out the people who now own the mare have been showing the filly in hand and have submitted the following information: 1. That the foal is a Welsh/TB 2. that the Breeder is the mare owner’s daughter and that it’s a colt.
My friend contacts USEF and speaks to Ken Ball about this and states she OWNED the mare when she was covered and she owns the stallion and all the details. That’s when he tells her about this “Breeder is the owner of the mare when foal is born”.[/QUOTE]

That sounds more like a convoluted excuse for not actually having a policy to distinguish who the breeder is. That’s pretty typical USEF. They sort of masquerade as a registry of sorts, but they are “light” on the checks and balances on the information submitted. As I said above, according to the USEF I can submit whatever breed/breeder info I want and there are no way the system would know if it were factual or not (nor do they apparently really care).

[ljcfoh]

[QUOTE=Bent Hickory;6287971]

As for the rest about the AHS and/or AHHA, etc., your statements are nothing more than hearsay and I wouldn’t rely on such “statements” coming second hand thru the USEF about the policies of any of these registries. In any case, neither of these registeries is involved with your friend’s issue so not sure why this is even relevant.[/QUOTE]

I am not sure why you seem touchy on the OP relaying the conversation with Ken Ball? I read it to mean she was trying to explain the question at hand. Regardless, the reason she mentioned the registries is that the USEF noted they had an arrangement with them on naming the breeder as the owner at time of foaling. I got no impression the OP was trying to slam them.

[S_A_McKee]

[QUOTE=ljcfoh;6288370]
That sounds more like a convoluted excuse for not actually having a policy to distinguish who the breeder is. That’s pretty typical USEF. They sort of masquerade as a registry of sorts, but they are “light” on the checks and balances on the information submitted. As I said above, according to the USEF I can submit whatever breed/breeder info I want and there are no way the system would know if it were factual or not (nor do they apparently really care).[/QUOTE]

Why the heck eould you think they are a registry?
They are points based on ly.
PHR IS a registry and does require more extensive info.
Way too much confusion aout the role of USEF from so called
Professioal Breeders.

[ljcfoh]

[QUOTE=Bent Hickory;6288082]
I love it - “knowingly entered … false information.” If I only had a quarter for every time I heard that … There are lots of issues here, many of which revolve around contract law, and not a single one of them should be resolved by the USEF. I’m sorry you elect not to recognize that.

Some people do bad things - doesn’t mean I agree with them or what they do. BUT, I’m also not going to join a lynch mob against the USEF for attempting to stay out of these disputes.[/QUOTE]

Wow, you really got your knickers in a knot about this. The OP was certainly not forming a lynch mob…the point is the USEF does collect Breed and breeder information and it is INTERESTING (as I have noted several times) that there can be a direct impact to breeders as there is no checks and balances of the information. It is certainly not the only place the USEF wades into without hip boots, but that doesnt mean people can’t have a conversation about it without you accusing people of a lynch mob.

[ljcfoh]

[QUOTE=S A McKee;6288387]
Why the heck eould you think they are a registry?
They are points based on ly.
PHR IS a registry and does require more extensive info.
Way too much confusion aout the role of USEF from so called
Professioal Breeders.[/QUOTE]

I have no confusion on what the USEF is. What do you think people do with all these horses being bred if not show them? I said they “masquerade” as a registry of sorts and they do. Not a BREEED registry, I didn’t say that.

[Donatella]

[QUOTE=Sonesta;6288148]
Seems the “breeder” should be determined by the rules of the registering body[/QUOTE]

^Agree with this.

For Friesian Sporthorses the breeder is the person who owned or leased the mare at time of breeding.

If mare is sold pregnant or foal sold in utero, breeder doesn’t change.

[Christa_P]

If they’re showing I am trying to figure out how they are passing a colt off as a filly. I think the judge would notice :lol:.

Is it possible the people have 2 foals - the OLD/TB filly and a Welsh/TB colt?

Christa

[ljcfoh]

[QUOTE=S A McKee;6288162]
USEF does not maintain an ownership database.
As a courtesy, they provide awards for breeders and stallions.

They have to set a policy that covers all breeds.That means that if the majority of breeds use a certain policy that’s what USEF adopts.

And once again the WB breeders overlook the fact that they are a wee, tiny piece of the pie.

Lot more domestic ASB, Arab breeders involved. And I’m sure they have a lot more pull based on sheer numbers.

The center of the universe is not WB.

As an example for those of you that seem horrified by this screnario keep in mind that if I buy a custom foal or in utero I’m paying what amounts to stud fee and a lease on the mare yet I’m not the breeder because I did not own or lease the mare. Makes no difference that the in utero buyer may have set the breeding.
You can’t make it fair for everyone.[/QUOTE]

So, does the Arab world use the owner at time of foaling as the breeder? I hadn’t heard what breeds used that, but maybe that one does?

[VirginiaBred]

@ise@ssl

Well I do know the Jockey club goes by the owner at foaling.

The same as the Virginia Pony Breeders Association.

[Clear_Blue]

Something to consider is to file an “ownership in dispute form” with the USEF. I think once that is filed the horse cannot show until it is resolved.

You might have to go through the rules and regulations people at the USEF - I don’t know if the form is online.

[Janet]

I suspect the “agreement” is of tHe form “we will agree to disagree”.

[aurum]

Very short: here the breeder is the person that had the mare bred to xy stallion, all other would need to be in written like Alexandra noted.

[Janet]

It sounds as if your actual dispute is about “who owns the foal”, rather than “who is listed as the breeder”.

I would suggest you focus on the “ownership” issue, and ignore the “breeder” issue until the ownership is decided.

[TWF]

@Clear Blue;6289078

Something to consider is to file an “ownership in dispute form” with the USEF. I think once that is filed the horse cannot show until it is resolved.

Good advise.

I have a question for the " rules " people…say the person didn’t make a mistake…[INDENT]Does the USEF require the registration of a horse to be truthful?
[/INDENT]In the owners block of the
2012HorseApplication.pdf requires to get a HIB number to show a horse.[INDENT][B]OWNER’S SIGNATURE (REQUIRED) Signature certifies that you are the owner of the above animal. No agent’s signature accepted.

• By submitting this application, I agree to abide by all USEF rules and verify that all information is[/B] correct.
  [/INDENT]Where is the rule that applies to violations of certification/signature of ownership and knowingly providing false information to the USEF? Other than blocking the horse in question from showing…What is the penalty for making false or misleading entries on USEF Horse Applications?

Does anyone know if this issue been addressed before?