Who is the Breeder?

[Somermist]

[QUOTE=Janet;6289608]
It sounds as if your actual dispute is about “who owns the foal”, rather than “who is listed as the breeder”.

I would suggest you focus on the “ownership” issue, and ignore the “breeder” issue until the ownership is decided.[/QUOTE]

Actually, in this instance, this is one hundred percent true. It does sound like they want the foal. I would imagine the point of dispute is when was said mare bred. And, I would guess there is no contract to address whether mare was open, bred, etc at time of sale.

A DNA on foal would solve issue. If new owners of mare can’t prove they paid a stud fee to said stallion, then the mare was in foal when she was sold.

[M_O_Connor]

[QUOTE=alexandra;6288276]
Well and to make it more complicated:
In Germany if owner of mare (as noted in the registry) agrees in writng to registry, another person can be considered and registered as breeder. (another person can be leasee, in utero buyer, grandmother whoever). Only thing needed the “breeder” has to send in writing that he/she resigns from bein breeder of this foal but that person b is to be considered breeder…[/QUOTE]

So when they turn out to be total villains, the real breeders get to ‘resign?!’ Or, conversely, a good breeder who missed the boat can later claim credit for producing a successful horse, like you could theoretically ‘buy the breeding credit’ for a top horse? :lol: Horse people are SO creative!

[ise]

Sorry - I wasn’t back on here too much else going on.

Keep in mind the USEF has Breeder Ranking system. We don’t get ranked if the horses we breed that are in the system don’t have our names down as their Breeder. I now put Lifetime #'s on all the horses or ponies I breed but I’ve had to spend a lot of time double checking the ones that we sold before that to make sure my name is on there.

And while I supported the PHR in the past when it was independent. When it was picked up by the USEF - I don’t understand how they can have an “inhouse” Registry when they are the National Governing body for Horse Sport in this country.

And yes the ownership in the case here will have to be legally settled but the people who entered this horse into the system put in false information on the sire and breeder. Shouldn’t that have some penalty?

[alexandra]

[QUOTE=M. O’Connor;6289764]
So when they turn out to be total villains, the real breeders get to ‘resign?!’ Or, conversely, a good breeder who missed the boat can later claim credit for producing a successful horse, like you could theoretically ‘buy the breeding credit’ for a top horse? :lol: Horse people are SO creative![/QUOTE]

Sorry, but I think you misunderstood me (or I misunderstand you).

Breeder is always the person who owns mare at point of breeding. As this is registered at the stallion station anyways this is pretty easy to detect.
Now if I buy a mare in foal I can arrange something with the original breeder and he give me the right to be breeder. He has to send in writing that he resigns to the Verband.
But I think I missed this: these kind of arrangements can only happen before foal is branded and hence papers officially started to be filled out and send to the Verband. After that no new breeder possible at all.

[Mardi]

[QUOTE=ise@ssl;6290136]

And yes the ownership in the case here will have to be legally settled but the people who entered this horse into the system put in false information on the sire and breeder. Shouldn’t that have some penalty?[/QUOTE]

Yes.
But USEF’s indifference doesn’t come as a total surprise.

[aurum]

@alexandra;6290175

Sorry, but I think you misunderstood me (or I misunderstand you).

Breeder is always the person who owns mare at point of breeding. As this is registered at the stallion station anyways this is pretty easy to detect.
Now if I buy a mare in foal I can arrange something with the original breeder and he give me the right to be breeder. He has to send in writing that he resigns to the Verband.
But I think I missed this: these kind of arrangements can only happen before foal is branded and hence papers officially started to be filled out and send to the Verband. After that no new breeder possible at all.

As far as I know the breeder is the person that is noted as breeder on the established cover certificate. Once that is done its done.

[alexandra]

[QUOTE=aurum;6291249]
As far as I know the breeder is the person that is noted as breeder on the established cover certificate. Once that is done its done.[/QUOTE]
Well not with Hanoverian Verband: if that person (that you mention) agrees in writing this can be changed, but before foal registration papers are issued.

[ise]

Alexandra - that certainly validates an old saying… “Money changes everything”.

[rcloisonne]

[QUOTE=ljcfoh;6288766]
So, does the Arab world use the owner at time of foaling as the breeder? I hadn’t heard what breeds used that, but maybe that one does?[/QUOTE]
No. Rather elaborate records must be completed, signed by the breeder (owner or leasee of the mare at the time of breeding) AND the stallion owner. Exact dates the inseminations or covers took place must be provided. The AHR even requires a description of the type of live cover, i.e., pasture or hand bred, etc… Both parents and the resulting foal must be DNA typed to register the foal as a purebred. Even more paperwork is involved for embryo transfer but since I’ve never done that I don’t know what it is.

[DownYonder]

FWIW, OHBS/GOV considers the breeder to be the owner or lessee of the mare at time of breeding. Breeder designation has nothing to do with who the mare owner was at time of foaling.

[TWF]

When is it a violation in the USEF??

@DownYonder;6291690

FWIW, OHBS/GOV considers the breeder to be the owner or lessee of the mare at time of breeding. Breeder designation has nothing to do with who the mare owner was at time of foaling.

Thanks!

In THIS case…at the time of Breeding - 2010:

• The Owner of the mare & stallion at the time of breeding is not in dispute.
• The stallion is a WB.
• SO & MO are same =There is NO mistake on the parentage.

2011 USEF registration:

• The person (a junior)signs ownership and certifies the facts are [B]CORRECT[/B]
• Certifies they have a 1/2 welsh filly out of the mare
• Certifies the sire is UNKOWN
• Certifies she is the breeder?

2012 -SOOOOOoooooo......

• A WB filly with fully recognized parentage is shown in USEF rated shows
• Sire: UNKNOWN
• Breed: 1/2 welsh/TB
• In the HB divisions.
• Rumors fly!
• First show... she is finally "found".
• Wins classes and is Res Best Young Horse!!

[B]Breeder gets Cheated - No points toward Breeder Awards Stallion gets Cheated - No points[/B][B] Sire Awards & NO Credit for producing a nice filly!

[/B]The record is wrong …so my question is

WHEN are THEY in trouble?? (As they collect breeder records they don’t deserve)
What happens to the persons (including parent since the owner is a junior) falsely making the CERTIFICATION to the FACTS of United States Equestrian Federation??[B]"

[/B]

[B]DOES this make ANY sense to you??

So if this were a dispute about who is the breeder…
Why lie about the breed? the Sire?
[/B]

[S_A_McKee]

[QUOTE=ise@ssl;6290136]

Keep in mind the USEF has Breeder Ranking system. We don’t get ranked if the horses we breed that are in the system don’t have our names down as their Breeder. I now put Lifetime #'s on all the horses or ponies I breed but I’ve had to spend a lot of time double checking the ones that we sold before that to make sure my name is on there.

And while I supported the PHR in the past when it was independent. When it was picked up by the USEF - I don’t understand how they can have an “inhouse” Registry when they are the National Governing body for Horse Sport in this country.

?[/QUOTE]
It’s nice that you spend $ on Lifetime recording but you do understand if I buy a horse from you and don’t care for it’s name I do a simple re-record with USEF.
Or better still I use a HID and no amount of whining will get you any breeder ponts.

I doubt that you understand the point of PHR. In fact I’m sure you don’t.

1-Originally it was for TB’s only and was supposed to track TB ped’s but the WB breeders cried and USEF allowed those dratted WB’s in thus negating the original purpose of the registry.

2-the main point of PHR recording is to make horses eligible for a secondary set of year end point based awards at the Ntl, zone and state levels.
You want to be eligible for this set of awards? Simply pay another recording fee plus a yearly or annual silver stirrup awards fee.
There is no tracking of pedigree, no searchable DB.
Points based awards system.

3- It also provides a way to prove the identity of a horse if you want to pay for dna testing. An example: You have a TB and no papers but you want to show in an age restricted class ( young jumpers perhaps). Dna testing is not required to be recorded with PHR but it can be invaluable to ID a horse whose parents are likely to have dna on file.

Any USEF recording is for the purpose of year end points only and is not required to compete in H/J.

I’d be very, very suspicious of a breeder who makes a lot of claims to be the breeder when the owner’s recording application does not support their role as breeder.
What sort of proof is USEF asking for to change breeder name or add one?

[TWF]

I’m sorry…I thot we were talking ethics and rules of our NGB as it relates to the issue at hand. Who is the breeder?

Suspicious? Really? Not to venture too far off topic …for your sake …I’ll give you some facts…as I felt a jab at my breeder gene.

A TB cross filly was the first PHR winner of the Silver Stirrup Award in HB - Grand Affair - She in fact won the first second and third year of the awards. As a WB breeder… I never lobbied for inclusion. I registered my eligible horses. Horses I bred were among the first 1000 horses registered. 1/2 TBs were in included that registry. Stallions were bloodtyped but not the filies. Bloodlines were to be kept in a database and I registered my eligible horses…believing the goal to build & track American Performance Breeding via the Registry.

As for making the history of a horse disappear…

Certifying a false statement on an Official registration doesn’t make it CORRECT. What is the point of hiding the truth?

I strongly disagree with the lack of verification in place @ the USEF. It was a shame my horse, a 1/2 TB, was renamed - Eleventh Hour- the World Champion rider who took him to the national championship confirmed his real ID. While he was nationally recognized; I would have enjoyed knowing he was a horse I bred.

But that is not the issue …Who is the Breeder?

[ise]

S.A.McKee - I’m not whining and as I stated I was very early on a supporter and participant in the PHR. Spent a lot of dough putting quite a few of the horses I bred into the system when it was connected to the Jockey Club. And many of them were WB’s!!

I don’t believe the National Governing Body should be acting as a pseudo horse registry. And that’s what the PHR is now. They even have their own awards program??!!**

[RyTimMick]

For AHHA it used to be the breeder was the owner of the mare at the time the foal hit the ground. I believe this has now been changed to the owner of the mare at the time of insemmination to be consistent with the HV. For example. I bred a Ramiro mare, Raldeka to Con Caletto. The mare was sold pregnant to Silver Creek. The foal was Rolex S and Silver Creek was registered as the breeder. Didn’t make much sense. I am glad this has now changed.

Tim

[ljcfoh]

@S A McKee;6292890

It’s nice that you spend $ on Lifetime recording but you do understand if I buy a horse from you and don’t care for it’s name I do a simple re-record with USEF.
Or better still I use a HID and no amount of whining will get you any breeder ponts.

Once a horse is recorded, there is no simple re-record. You can change it’s name but you cannot “technically” re-record it. You can cheat and do that but there are penalties for being caught.

If you change its name, that’s all that changes not the recording number, breeder, etc.

[ise]

THANK YOU ljcfoh - I was going to post that S.A.McKee was wrong in her post.