Who rides in a foam/latex paneled dressage saddle?

[outerbanks77]

I’ve been riding in a Black Country Vinici with serge panels for a long time, and it appears to fit my 17H warmblood mare in standing (just had it flocked to fit her before Christmas) but in her bodywork appointment yesterday she was showing soreness in the mid-back. When she lifts her back, I’m wondering if it concentrates the weight too much just under my seat. Discussed with the bodyworker that maybe I needed something with a slight bridge to give her space to lift her back, so of course I was trolling the interwebz last night looking for alternatives. Two that looked interesting were an Arion and a Voltaire; some of the Equipes look really nice as well. A complication for me is my terribly long femur, so I need a short, angled block and preferably a bit forward flap (I had the Vinici made custom with a short block and 1.5" forward flap, so I am loathe to give it up as it fits me like a glove). That considerably narrows the pool of saddles I can choose from. Also, I’m in Idaho, so there’s not much in terms of access to reps for various saddle brands.

Anyway, I think the only foam saddle I’ve ever owned was my Collegiate Graduate from High School, so this is all new territory for me. It does seem like the shape of many of the foam panels provides more spine clearance and potentially more load-bearing area if the fit is just right. I do know to look for a newer saddle since the foam can age and harden, even if the saddle doesn’t have a lot of use. I’d definitely only buy something with a trial offered, just wondering what else I might want to think about, who is happy (or not) with their foam flocked dressage saddle, etc.

Here is a recent photo of the beast for an idea of the shape I’m fitting to - she has enormous spinal processes, so we need some width for sure. She’s second level-ish, so potential for building more topline as we develop towards third and beyond, but already fairly fit.

[Scribbler]

You can tweak a wool panel to do anything you want. You can remove stuffing from under the seat to make it bridge if that seems like a good idea to you and replace it if it doesn’t work. Whereas with foam you are stuck with that shape and can only use shims to correct.

Do you think the tree shape on your existing saddle is too curvy for your horse, such a bad mismatch that you can never make it fit? Or do you just want to experiment with having less fill under the seat? If you have wool flocking that’s easily done.

That said I have never heard of a horse getting a sore back from raising the back in work and needing a saddle to bridge. In my experience the whole saddle rises when the back lifts. However I do feel my mare prefers a rather “deflated” and softer panel ( and she can raise and does raise her back once she wakes up, I can feel the difference). If your panels are super stuffed which I do see on dressage saddles, that could be an issue.

You could also experiment with a 6 pocket shim pad, raise the wither and back pockets a smidge and leave the centre pocket empty.

However I don’t think purposely searching for a foam saddle that bridges significantly is going to solve back pain. Have you looked at arthritis or kissing spines?

Also what shape is your horses back? Is it curvy or flat? Edited to add: ok just saw the photo.

I’d say she has a very short back. Look how far back her wither ends and how much room her haunches take up! I think she looks really powerful and sturdy. But there isn’t much room for a saddle to sit.

The first thing I would do is get a second opinion on the saddle fit from another independent saddle fitter. Try to find one who will do back tracings. So many people get ripped off on fit from the big brand sales reps.

Also I love my body workers. But they are not saddle fitters, they are not coaches, they are not farriers, they are not vets and they are not nutritionists. I have had all kinds of conversations with body workers where I’ve listened and said “that’s very interesting” but I would never act on their off-label recommendations unless I ran it past the relevant care expert on my team. Most of the time I don’t even do that

Body workers are fantastic for alerting you to areas of pain and tension but they don’t see your horse 24/7 and don’t know how she goes under saddle or even how your saddle fits. Obviously saddle fit is number one suspect in back pain, but isn’t the only cause. Training, movement, and bone pathology all can cause pain.

Anyhow, the big question is whether your tree is a good match for maresy. If it is, are the panels too overstuffed? Can you have some filling taken out of the mid section as an experiment?

[outerbanks77]

The Vinici is a hoop tree, and does not have wither gussets, so I think it might be more a matter of not having the correct support in front. Right before Christmas she added some wool at the front to lift it a bit, but did not take any out of the middle or back. I did think about having some taken from the middle, but it is not overstuffed at all. I am loathe to have the one other fitter I know of here work with the serge panels. The person I work with here is the most capable beyond just fitting (she also put new hand cut billets on the Vinici) and has never pressured me to buy the brand she reps. There are no independent fitters here - Custom, Schleese, and sometimes a Prestige rep comes through but that is hit or miss. I won’t touch Schleese, and Prestige typically does not look like it would fit my leg, plus hard to find in wider trees. Of course Customs are a dime a dozen, but it seems like fit and quality are inconsistent, sometimes not great.

I have read several times about a slight bridge being desirable for providing space to lift the back, so I’m surprised that you’ve never heard similar. I did not say significant; clearly she doesn’t have a really curvy back, so that is probably not a big risk. Mare had a week off and seemed pretty good in her back, then I rode 3 days in a row prior to the bodywork session, in which she was touchy mid-back.

[sascha]

@Scribbler

That said I have never heard of a horse getting a sore back from raising the back in work and needing a saddle to bridge. In my experience the whole saddle rises when the back lifts.

From Black Country “They have a little more curve to the tree than most English brands and the panel shape does well on short backs.”

If the horse is lifting the back a huge amount (possible) the saddle could rock front to back from a tree that is too curvy for the lifted back shape. Looking at the shape of the back in the picture I can imagine that happening because the whole back doesn’t just levitate, the middle back lifts and rounds. Play with belly lifts on your horse and you should see the actual shape of the back does change when the muscles (obliques? I’ve forgotten the name of the big band of abs that lives in front of the line from hip to stifle) are engaged.

[outerbanks77]

@sascha

If the horse is lifting the back a huge amount (possible) the saddle could rock front to back from a tree that is too curvy for the lifted back shape.

Yes, I don’t know if it’s a huge amount, but I definitely feel the elevation change under my seat when she really engages in HI/SI for instance. I did do a search on this topic and found some older threads with posters whose horses were going better in foam panels, but thought I might find some more recent experiences. With weather and work travel, I won’t be ordering anything on trial until at least next month. If the weather clears I can try to get back over to the saddler if she thinks taking some flock out of the middle might help. Truth be told, I could use a bit more block that what this Vinici has while I endeavor to sit her mediums

[Scribbler]

@outerbanks77

The Vinici is a hoop tree, and does not have wither gussets, so I think it might be more a matter of not having the correct support in front. Right before Christmas she added some wool at the front to lift it a bit, but did not take any out of the middle or back. I did think about having some taken from the middle, but it is not overstuffed at all. I am loathe to have the one other fitter I know of here work with the serge panels. The person I work with here is the most capable beyond just fitting (she also put new hand cut billets on the Vinici) and has never pressured me to buy the brand she reps. There are no independent fitters here - Custom, Schleese, and sometimes a Prestige rep comes through but that is hit or miss. I won’t touch Schleese, and Prestige typically does not look like it would fit my leg, plus hard to find in wider trees. Of course Customs are a dime a dozen, but it seems like fit and quality are inconsistent, sometimes not great.

I have read several times about a slight bridge being desirable for providing space to lift the back, so I’m surprised that you’ve never heard similar. I did not say significant; clearly she doesn’t have a really curvy back, so that is probably not a big risk. Mare had a week off and seemed pretty good in her back, then I rode 3 days in a row prior to the bodywork session, in which she was touchy mid-back.

The brand I see around here selling saddles that bridge is Schleese and I don’t trust their fitters at all!

If you think the withers are too wide you could try a shim pad just for the front. Honestly shim pads or even home made shims can be very very useful in fitting a saddle or experimenting with tweaking the fit.

Trying belly lifts with the saddle sitting on the back but not girthed could be an interesting experiment to see how the saddle wants to move.

I’m not disagreeing that the saddle may have a fit issue causing chronic pain, but I’m not sure the solution is buying a foam saddle that bridges.

Also once chronic pain starts, the horse might need a break from riding for a couple of weeks before the pain disappears enough to be able to see if new configurations work better.

[Xanthoria]

An EQ Saddle Science might be the ticket.

Wither clearance? Check
Ability to adjust saddle easily for changing back shapes, more or less bridge, wider at the withers and on and on? Check
Ability to have any block anywhere you want (sewn in or velcro)? Check
Adjustable stirrup bars for extra long thighs? You didn’t ask, but check!

[blue_heron]

I have always been pro-wool and anti-foam for the reasons given above. Of course, one of my horses has made it very clear she prefers my coach’s foam-paneled French dressage saddle above all else. So, for the first time in my life, I am shopping for saddle with foam panels. One of the problems we’re battling is a short back and a lot of the saddles that typically work for short backs (Schleese, BC) don’t work for me.

[outerbanks77]

Xan, those are interesting, might give it a shot!

Blue Heron, do you have your sights on anything in particular?

In the wool category I did have a Patrick Leggero that we both liked, just ended up being too wide once she shed the baby fat. Getting a new one made is not off the table, but I do worry about having something custom made and being out a bunch of $$$ if it doesn’t work.

I am inclined to just try some things and see.

And I’m not sure where the idea came in that this is a chronic pain came in. I’ve had this bodyworker see her several times in the last few months and this is the first time she’s noted an issue that could be related to saddle fit. I also see my instructor about once a month and she is amazed at how much improvement we’ve made over the past couple months, so I think it’s more a case of her needing something different as she is really learning to use her back more.

[atr]

I understand. I’m having to do a lot more subtle flocking adjustments with Mr P’s saddle as he adds top line by the shovelful. I’m lucky in that I have a good and reasonably priced saddle fitter just round the corner. And she’s the one who sold me my saddle so she’s invested in keeping it right.

We keep the flocking fairly soft and I use a thinline pad between saddle pad and saddle.

Another thing to consider at this time of year if they are sensitive under the saddle is the hair-pull factor on these thin skinned Chestnut flowers. Mr P is sometime a little worried about the posture prep right under his saddle area, but relaxes into it if I’m careful about not pulling hairs on the unclipped back (if that makes any sense at all. Its been a long week.)

In some ways I’d love some kind of really slick, smooth underpad, that would just glide over the hair but I think it would just glide right on out of there. Probably need to go back to no pads at all for that concept to work. But only with leather panels.

[outerbanks77]

@Xanthoria

An EQ Saddle Science might be the ticket.

Are you riding in one of these? Their policy of sending a customized trial saddle with no commitment is definitely a bonus. I know flaps can be put on, but I’m curious how riding without flaps feels? Would it be slippery on a satin-type pad, or do you notice much of a difference. I’m used to close contact with the Vinici, so this would take it to another level.

[Xanthoria]

I bought a new one 3 years ago when my new mare was too wide for the Reactor Panel I used for years (RP founder split off to do EQ, which is dressage/jump saddles. Original RP company now focuses on endurance. Same technology)

They do a generous trial - I tried three saddles before I ordered I think? Luckily their office is near me so I was able to get personally fitted by the founder, but you can do this yourself - they can get on a video call and walk you through it if there’s no fitter near you.

Mine has a Velcro on flap I only use for shows. The rest of the time I feel extremely secure without a flap - I would imagine the leather flap and a satin pad would be a similar level of slipperiness but I don’t have any satin pads. I use all different brands of pads with my EQ - no need to buy their special style, tho they are neat.

Of course you can get all the usual leather types, colors and pipings etc but you can also customize the blocks and get adjustable stirrup bars as I mentioned - game changer for me, and next to impossible to find elsewhere. I also recently added taller disks at the back to raise the saddle back up and it’s much easier than using a riser pad. The leather quality is gorgeous - they’re made in England. The flaps are just a single thickness of leather which is odd to me but because I use them so little it’s immaterial to me.

Instead of reflocking, or shipping a foam panel saddle off to France to re panel, you just buy new panels if the old ones wear out ( mine are 3 yrs old and in great shape) - about the same cost and much faster. Instead of having a fitter out to adjust, you can do it yourself, today, for free.

The cost to buy the saddles is the same as any high quality saddle but the ongoing expense is less as a result of all this. You can also rent the saddles monthly - people often do this if they’re rehabbing a sore back for example. The weight bearing area is so much larger, and the saddles so much more stable, that they seem better for backs in theory - in my small sample group I’ve never experienced a sore back as a result of one, at least.

One thing I highly recommend is renting or buying a Port Lewis Impression Pad to check fit - on any brand of saddle. I absolutely love them.

I don’t know why more people don’t use the EQ saddles - they look weird for sure but the technology and ease of use is a real game changer for me and my horse.

[outerbanks77]

Thank you, very interesting!

[blue_heron]

I’m pretty sure my coach is riding in an Antares. I haven’t ridden in it yet so I can’t speak to whether it will work for me. I sat in a few CWD but they didn’t work for me. We’re going to try a Devoucoux Harmonie which seems to have rave reviews and then a few reviews from people who hated it. I’m also interested in trying an Equipe but haven’t yet.

[outerbanks77]

It’s cold and snowy this weekend, so I’ve had time to go down the rabbit hole.

Currently considering an Aviar - they are on an adjustable synthetic tree and the panels are changeable. I am waiting to hear back from a rep who travels to Idaho. The few references I found here seemed really positive as far as how the horses go in them, but that the seat is hard - I probably have adequate padding to compensate though

Antares look like they’d be too curvy for my horse and the flaps tend towards shorter. From what I’ve read of CWD as a company, I steer completely clear of them.

[Horsecrazy3]

My short backed 17.3 hh warmblood gelding preferred my French foam DSP Luc Childeric dressage saddle. Had no issues over the 10 yrs with the foam breaking down or fitting problems as he changed shape from 2nd level to Prix St George work. He also was very quick to let me know when he didn’t like something.

[suzyq]

I have an equipe elegance. Really fought to stay with wool flocked but my horse and I love this one.

[vali]

I have a Devoucoux Harmonie S (S model has deeper narrower seat and twist). I’m not sure if it’s the more flexible tree or the wide 3D panels but my mare really prefers it and the extra shock absorbtion is easier on my back.

[SonnysMom]

I loved my Voltaire Adelaide. It is currently on consignment since it doesn’t fit my current horse and I am mostly doing hunter stuff. My former dressage trainer uses a Voltaire Adelaide some but mostly uses 2 Hermes.

[Piaffe11]

I’m in the camp of hating the Harmonie. I had such a weird feeling riding in that saddle like I had nowhere to sit - never felt that in any other saddle I’ve ever ridden in.

If you ever find one used - I have an amazing Butet dressage saddle. Not too deep a seat, blocks are moderate, and gives a great neutral place to sit.