Well, if I had to go around looking at my elbows all day I’d need anti-crazy meds too.
I found an article that stated positive tests for fluphenazine is one of the most common reasons for citations by the usef, and that there was a positive at the 2004 olympics for this med but it doesn’t give details in the article…
also it is chemically related to piperazine that is an “old fashion” dewormer – we used to tube horses with it, but i would think that the test is quite sensitive and can differentiate between the two…it will be interesting to see how this plays out.
innocent until proven by secondary testing confirms, and then there is always the possiblity of foul play
it looks like in horses it is primarily used in an injectable depot form with slow release
So was it like a real positive, or a .000000000001 positive?
Well, let’s wait for the other side of the story. There is no mention yet on how much of this substance was found (may I remind you of Courtney King at the Olympics) – vets have been able to detect it for the past 10 years, so it’s unlikekly that even the Beerbaum philosophy (whatever can’t be found is allowed) applies here. I’m hoping for Isabelle’s horses that she is as honest as I thought she was.
thanks – appreciate that
Oh, that’s priceless! :lol:
[QUOTE=Ambrey;4186152]
So was it like a real positive, or a .000000000001 positive?[/QUOTE]
That is the problem. Some of the amounts are so infinitesimal as to be negligible. But they do not quantify a positive.
In a medication like this, there should be no reason for its use in the first place.
[QUOTE=cute_lil_fancy_pants_pony;4185817]
Fluphenazine is given by veterinarians as a long term sedative for horses. One injection will last a month. BUT! Just a thought-- is it legal for rider’s to compete on anti-schizophrenic drugs? What if a rider is schizophrenic, or has cancer, or thyroid problems-- certainly some drugs are legal for riders to use if they are suffering from a disease, so where do they draw the line? And if it is OK for riders to compete on fluphenazine, then why not horses? What if the horse does have a mental disorder like schizophrenia, who is to say it doesn’t?[/QUOTE]
riders must provide proof of medical diagnosis to the FEI in order to compete while taking banned substances for health reasons. this way, if they test positive, they will not be set down for taking a drug they need to stay healthy.
Bingo.
Interestingly, I first heard of fluphenazine shortly after I graduated from school, when a good friend who had purchased a head case of a horse was working on rehabbing him.
A dressage pro suggested she try fluphenazine, as, according to this person, it was very commonly used as a training aid…
I’d not heard of its use in horse prior to that.
And, after inquiring of my pharmacology professor and two behavior specialist DVMs, I recommended against it. One of them actually said that she wouldn’t touch it with a 10 foot pole.
Years later, I consider it one of those drugs of last resort. Certainly not something that ought to be showing up even in traqce amounts in competiton horses, though.
It is quite common to give it to horses that are recovering from an injury and need to be on stall rest for several weeks. Many horses, like mine, start rearing and bucking and tearing around in their stall which is not very good for the healing process. I asked for fluphenazine for my horse because several people at my barn (not a show barn) had their horses on it for the same reason. My particular vet did not like its side effects (which I am not sure what they are) so recommended I give ace everyday-- which has its own risk of colic- slows down the bowels. I could see its possible that if Isabelle’s horse was recovering from an injury and needed to be on stall rest a few months ago, maybe it would still test positive because of that.
Is this drug marketed under the name Reserpine?Just wondering, as Reserpine is used as a long acting sedative, and we sometimes give it to bitchy mares whose foals are in the neo-natal intensive care unit at the hospital I work at.
I have used it on an unruly race horse who is trying to work through some bad training issues, but never closer than a minimum of 30 days prior to racing.
[QUOTE=carovet;4186135]
I found an article that stated positive tests for fluphenazine is one of the most common reasons for citations by the usef, and that there was a positive at the 2004 olympics for this med but it doesn’t give details in the article…
also it is chemically related to piperazine that is an “old fashion” dewormer – we used to tube horses with it, but i would think that the test is quite sensitive and can differentiate between the two…it will be interesting to see how this plays out.
innocent until proven by secondary testing confirms, and then there is always the possiblity of foul play
it looks like in horses it is primarily used in an injectable depot form with slow release[/QUOTE]
The positive in Athens 2004 was Cian o’ Connor who was stripped of his Gold Medal!
This does not look good for Isabell, or her connections.
I wonder what Madeleine Winter Schulz (sp) makes of this and Ludger’s recent comments!
i had the same question – it is different from reserpine, and has different side effects – this one tends to cause neuro and parkinson’s like problems with o.d. and toxicity, and reported that some horses are extremely sensitive and have bad neuro signs at normal dose (reserpine is primarily g.i. side effects)
also, to my knowledge, ace has minimal to no effect on g.i. – unlike xylazine and domitor –
[QUOTE=canyonoak;4185776]
Am I the only person who finds it disturbing, not to mention strange, not to mention far-fetched, not to mention suspicious that the Werth horse is her small tour horse, WHisper and NOT either of her GP stars who ,btw, are guarded 24/7…?
and my my my, the FEI can act quickly when it wants to I guess… while dragging out the cases of Princess Haya’s husband and his son, thus nulllifying Haya’s effectiveness.
witch hunt.
unbelievable.[/QUOTE]
:yes: and :eek: Agreed. The timing is absolutely impeccable.
[QUOTE=MEP;4186679]
:yes: and :eek: Agreed. The timing is absolutely impeccable.[/QUOTE]
why do you think this is a witch hunt? dont you think that horses that test positive should not be allowed to compete and the riders suspended as per the rules?
and, i dont really understand the reasoning behind those that are seeing a conspiracy? can you elaborate?
[QUOTE=meupatdoes;4186085]
Well, if I had to go around looking at my elbows all day I’d need anti-crazy meds too.[/QUOTE]
:lol::lol::lol:
Funny how some people are so ready to string up IW before all the information is in. HAs everyone forgotten about Courtney and all the possible excuses and explanations for that one? Most of us were quite willing to give CKD the benefit of the doubt and rightly so. Why would you not give IW that same courtesy?
Stupid question. CKD is from the US so that’s different.:lol::lol::lol:.
Agree with canyonoak.
I get the impression that for some users the problem is not doping, but the doping tests. Thats saying a lot. :no:
A concentration in picomolar (0,000.000.000.001) or femtomolar (0,000.000.000.000.001) range is a “normal” plasmaconcentration for many biological active substances, e.g. some hormones.
fluphenazine is an old fashioned antipsychotic that has been around for a long time. It blocks dopamine. It is not reserpine.
It is usually called ‘prolixin’ in the USA. It is available in an injection with a slow release over several weeks. It may have side effects, or it may not. I know some people who do very well with it and some who have not.
It isn’t exactly a ‘sedative’ per se. It makes people less psychotic, which is not the same as ‘sedating’ them, but it might make a person appear ‘calmer’ because they aren’t as psychotic. In large doses, I am sure it could make a person sleepy. I would make no assumptions as to how it would affect a horse.
Psychosis is sometimes described as nerves being bombarded with extra signals intended for other nerve cells. Maybe there is a connection there. Maybe if this medication does help this condition, that connection could help track down the cause of this condition. Sometimes researchers have to track backwards that way.
I have no idea what fluphenazine would do to muscle control disorders in an animal like a horse that doesn’t have the same sort of brain as a human. Most of the animal studies I read on fluphenazine were done on small animals, I think. I have seen descriptions of how antipsychotics in general affect mice, but what I read was behavioral, not about effects on muscle disorder etc. I’ve read of antipsychotic studies on dogs, but only for heart research.
Schizophrenics often have abnormal eye movements, and I have seen this class of medication reduce their abnormal eye movements. Eye movements are muscular, so maybe there is something there.
I think too, there is a ‘shiverer’ condition in mice. In them, the symptoms are associated with deteriorating of the nerves. The coating that actually makes the nerves work and conduct (myelin), actually deteriorates, among other effects, I think.
If there is any similarity to this in horses, I am absolutely flummoxed as to how a dopamine blocker could possibly make up for that.
I can’t recall for sure, but I don’t think Whisper was a horse that was particularly spooky, strong or difficult. If he was getting that medication, I do believe what Werth says, that it was given for an actual medical condition.
It does make her speech at the conference sort of prophetic. She had said she felt trainers should be allowed to treat animals for medical conditions. She very well could have been thinking specifically of this horse at the time.
When we were watching that conference, I was very struck by her manner, which seemed very drained, emotional, defensive, apologetic and sad.
I have heard of some anti-seizure medications reducing nerve irritation (nerves irritated by neurological disease or nerve injury), and antidepressants helping to reduce nerve irritation. I do understand that. My sister in law is taking neurontin after a car accident damaged the nerves in her face, causing chronic pain and neurological symptoms. Neurontin, an anti seizure medication, reduces the irritation of the nerves.
But I am very puzzled with the idea of using a dopamine blocker to treat shivering. Shivering is considered to be a neurological disorder and for my entire life with horses, I have only heard it declared to have an unknown cause. I would assume that something is irritating the nerves that control muscle coordination, something with the potential for deterioration, perhaps an actual disease process, but little seems known about it.
I can find no sure information on its cause or research on treatment, or using dopamine blockers for it.
The description of the problem also sounds odd, but it’s a babelfish translation (or sounds like one) so may not really have a good translation of some of the details. They must feel that this medication is effective, but I can’t imagine how it affects the nerves controlling the muscles.
I understand that shiverers sometimes remain mildly affected, sometimes it goes away spontaneously, and that it is also not unusual for the horse to deteriorate gradually (or even quickly, I know of one 7 yr old that was put down with it).
If a horse is mildly affected, I recall it’s often only noticeable is when they have to pick up their feet to be shod. If a medication were to make the horse comfortable during shoeing and especially if staying on that medication consistently would slow down the course of the illness, I would be extremely in favor of the FEI allowing a competition horse to be given medication and compete.
It would be a terrible shame for a trainer/rider to sit and watch a successful, beloved horse develop symptoms, and spend every day wondering if he’ll get better, stay the same, or deteriorate to being a complete cripple.
And if a medication could keep the condition from worsening, I would hope the horse could stay on the medication and even show if he was able to be worked and kept fit at that level without harming him. With the FEI monitoring the situation I can understand an accomodation being made.
Ah, “Prolixin”. I remember that one, it was the drug du jour on Planet H/J many many years ago. Thanks for the 'splain, SLC!
