Who's Next..... Isabell Werth suspended for using Fluphenazine

I can’t explain much, I’ll leave that to more knowledgeable people.

I do know that horse people use this drug on horses, but I also think drug tests have included it for quite some time now. What puzzles me is not just how the drug would improve a shiverer, but what actually is the root cause of the shivering itself.

There has to be some proven mechanism that connects a treatment with a result, not just ‘well maybe’ or ‘perhaps it’s like this’. That’s what I’m missing here, something linking a cause of the disroder to a mechanism of a drug, but big time.

I did do some searches on the internet, and found that among some circles, this drug is indeed used simply to ‘take the edge off’ a misbehaving horse, one woman even recommended every horse that is gelded get it ‘while waiting for the testosterone to go away’. One vet even described two patients will ill effects that he believed were a result of giving this drug, one who ‘dog sat’ for long periods, and I believe a different case in which the horse kneeled on its knees for long periods of time. But with no research on horses, I’m not sure how one would know how much to give the animal or what the side effects might be.

Another vet site described side effects of pawing, sweating and odd tense movements of neck muscles.

One thing that would concern me is that as poorly as I know the drug class fluphenazine is in, I do believe a common side effect involves discomfort in heat and sunlight. I’d be uncomfortable working an animal and especially showing it, even if it needed this for a specific medical problem and it was allowed, until I was sure the animal would not be badly effected by sun and heat which is common at most competitions.

Side effects are often related to dose, with some drugs having fewer, milder and less frequent side effects with smaller doses (some medications that affect the nervous system or brain don’t have dose related side effects, though). So it seems for the good of the animal one would want to give as little of such medications as needed to be effective.

The worst thing I can think of is that if one injects the long acting form and it disagrees with the animal, you have 2 - 6 weeks wait for it to clear the system. Very rarely, there are extreme reactions to these drugs, even with a small dose. With a long acting drug I am afraid any unusual or rare reaction might be catastrophic.

Unless a drug like this really was proven to treat a specific disease that had to be treated, I would afraid to give it to a horse because from the little I know, there are no dose recommendations, side effects or effectivity research studies to work from. Perhaps this medication was recommended by a vet who had experience with many cases and can make some recommendations for dose and things to be careful of.

Outside of specific medical use, the ‘risk-benefit’ profile isn’t good and there are drugs with a better ‘risk benefit’ profile available. If it were a person with severe psychotic symptoms and a danger to self and others, it might be the only alternative if other drugs in its category don’t help, but with a horse, the situation is very different.

For behavior problems, I am uncomfortable giving a horse medication, I would prefer to handle such things with training, adjustments to diet and exercise. For emergencies, when an animal must stand for a painful emergency medical treatment, or lie quietly in an overturned trailer while waiting for assistance, there is good old ace.

[QUOTE=meupatdoes;4186085]
Well, if I had to go around looking at my elbows all day I’d need anti-crazy meds too.[/QUOTE]

:lol::lol: What’s funny here is being bi polar doesn’t mean you are crazy… Labeling it such is just ignorant:mad:

[QUOTE=War Admiral;4187072]
Ah, “Prolixin”. I remember that one, it was the drug du jour on Planet H/J many many years ago. Thanks for the 'splain, SLC![/QUOTE]

Oh, it’s still around. I know people who’ve used it on their horses.

[QUOTE=mbm;4186723]
why do you think this is a witch hunt? dont you think that horses that test positive should not be allowed to compete and the riders suspended as per the rules?

and, i dont really understand the reasoning behind those that are seeing a conspiracy? can you elaborate?[/QUOTE]

I wouldn’t call it a conspiracy by the same nefarious villains, by any stretch of the imagination. But I do think there a similarities in that a great way to shut people up when they are openly critical about something is to make them look like they’ve done it themselves. In the instances of Jessica Kurten and Isabell Werth, however, there would be completely different people doing the dirty work.

Jessica Kurten was critical of members of the irish team following the Cian O’Conner episode at the Olympics and was very vocal about her opinions. Then, hey presto, suddenly her horse comes up with a positive test. Who knows how that came about, but I’ve always wondered if someone who wanted JK to shut up in her criticisms of the alleged ‘dopers’ on the Irish team might have helped her horse to a positive test result. How, who, when, I don’t have a clue. I also will say, I don’t have a tendency to see conspiracies behind every bush. And it could be farfetched. But, I think it would be very easy to slip someone’s horse a little something during a big horse show.

The IW case is similar in that IW had begun to speak out about the FEI policy when, hey presto, her horse tests positive. In this case, I would look for someone who supported the FN’s policies and wanted to discredit IW for opposing them. However, reading SLC’s posts about shivers and being one of those folks who does not understand German and thus not able to read the press release, I’m wondering if there was some medical reason given for the use of the drug. Don’t know, and as someone else said, it’s a good idea to wait for more info!

As far as this question:

dont you think that horses that test positive should not be allowed to compete and the riders suspended as per the rules?

Yes, I think rules should be enforced. However, if the rules are bad, I think they should be changed. The FEI policy already distinguishes between ‘doping’ infractions and ‘medication’ infractions. However, ALL infractions are currently reported in the press as “doping” infractions. I personally feel that the FEI should further clarify and separate out the ‘medication’ list and de-criminalize it thereby making true doping cases - substances that enhance performance - the object of the testing program.

Edited to add:

OK. I just read the translation on the other thread, and it is definite that no-one spiked Whispers water so another fine conspiracy theory shot down!! While the translation was difficult to read, I gathered there was something in there about the sensitivity of the testing procedure and the amount of time it took to get out of the horses system. It does sound as if the drug was used for a ‘medical’ purpose, however, rather than to change or enhance the horses performance. And frankly, if Isabell was going to dope one of her horses, wouldn’t she use it on Satchmo or Warum Nicht who are definitely capable of ultra spooky behavior?

IW admits to having Whisper treated with Modecate (contains Fluphenazine) for Shivers Syndrome.

From IW’s website:

[B]

[/B]Yesterday I was informed by the FN that during a medication test on May 30, 2009 at the CDI in Wiesbaden, traces of the substance FLUPHENAZINE were found in a sample taken from my small tour horse Whisper. Therefore I feel the need to inform the public personally – in addition to today’s FN press release – about the background of this matter.

Whisper suffers from the so-called SHIVERING SYNDROME. This affects the central nervous system and causes imbalances if the horse has to stand on three legs for a longer while – for example when being groomed, bandaged or shod. Feeling insecure, the horse begins to shiver and lunges uncontrollably for fear of losing its balance and keeling over. This illness is not painful and does not influence a horse’s ability to compete, but it entails an increased risk for the persons working with the horse (farrier, groom, rider).

Therefore I asked my veterinarian Dr. Hans Stihl (SUI), if and how this Shivering Syndrome can be treated. Dr. Stihl explained to me that so far there is no cure for this ailment, but that several horses in his care had showed positive reactions to a drug called MODECATE. This drug contains FLUPHENAZINE as an active substance. So we treated Whisper once, on May 16, 2009, with this drug, in order to find out if he responds to it. This was the case, the shivering was reduced, and there was less uncontrolled movement when we raised one of his legs.

When asked for the settling time, Dr. Stihl told me that according to his experience, six days are enough, but one could never be completely sure. So, to be on the safe side, we decided to let Whisper compete again on May 30, 2009 in Wiesbaden. I took this decision to the best of my knowledge. In spite of this, the FEI doping lab has now found traces of said substance. One reason may be that the lab has used new analyzing methods.

The FEI has suspended me immediately, as dictated by the rules of procedure. The fact that only ineffective traces of the drug were found does not matter according to those rules. I deeply regret this incident, but I was convinced that I had acted correctly. I wish the rules were revised as quickly as possible in a way that allows reasonable treatment of sport horses without risking long suspensions because the settling times change constantly with each new method of analysis and become literally “incalculable”.

I am aware that I have given reason to doubt the honesty and cleanness of my person and of our sport. I herewith apologize to everyone who is close to me and to equestrian sports. Of course I will do everything to help clarifying any questions that still remain.

Thanks, Claire. That confirms what I gathered from the translated version.

Question. Doesn’t the FEI require that you report any “treatment” that has occurred before competition?

And given the extreme scrutiny that one is under in FEI competitions; wouldn’t you have thought IW would have covered her posterior and declared the Modecate treatment up front? :confused:

[QUOTE=MEP;4187304]

Yes, I think rules should be enforced. However, if the rules are bad, I think they should be changed. The FEI policy already distinguishes between ‘doping’ infractions and ‘medication’ infractions. However, ALL infractions are currently reported in the press as “doping” infractions. I personally feel that the FEI should further clarify and separate out the ‘medication’ list and de-criminalize it thereby making true doping cases - substances that enhance performance - the object of the testing program.

Edited to add:

OK. I just read the translation on the other thread, and it is definite that no-one spiked Whispers water so another fine conspiracy theory shot down!! While the translation was difficult to read, I gathered there was something in there about the sensitivity of the testing procedure and the amount of time it took to get out of the horses system. It does sound as if the drug was used for a ‘medical’ purpose, however, rather than to change or enhance the horses performance. And frankly, if Isabell was going to dope one of her horses, wouldn’t she use it on Satchmo or Warum Nicht who are definitely capable of ultra spooky behavior?[/QUOTE]

i always wonder if folks like IW do any kind of research before administering new drugs to their horses. It is pretty easy to find info about Fluphenizine (sp) and that there isn’t any way that it could clear in 6 days. at least not in the form used as a tranq (it is a 30 day long acting tranq) …

also if the FEI is going to use more sensitive tests - how does that affect the “clear date” for drugs? IW appears to be saying it does .

as for the rules. i think everyone should follow the rules and if someone doesn’t like then they should go thru the proper channel to change them.

and finally - someone, somewhere decided that riders needed to be called “athletes” and once that happened everything changed and using terms like “doping” will happen as that is the term used for all other “athletes” - and while i agree that riding at the intl FEI level is elite, i think calling riders athletes was a mistake.

[QUOTE=claire;4187444]
Question. Doesn’t the FEI require that you report any “treatment” that has occurred before competition?

And given the extreme scrutiny that one is under in FEI competitions; wouldn’t you have thought IW would have covered her posterior and declared the Modecate treatment up front? :confused:[/QUOTE]

Sure, unless you thought you could get away with it. Note her reference to ‘new testing method’, one wonders how long she’s been using it. Why is she even competing a horse with a neurological problem like that anyway?

If “shiverers”, according to her report does not affect performance, then why the heck use it?

If it use was embarked upon to make life easier for when the horse is idle and showing symptoms (that could be dangerous to “handlers, grooms, farriers”), it doesn’t matter. If there is residual affect of the drug (beyond the desire to take care of acute symptoms of his afflcition – which is admirable), nevertheless, it makes the playing field uneven for others.

Just retire the horse and not ask for “exceptions”.

I’m the one who suggested conspiracy, and I was wrong, so am just publicly stating that it is obvious that Isabell Werth believed her vet.

Dr. Stihl has been for quite some time one of THE ‘go-to’ vets for top sport horses,and without a doubt he has enormous medical knowledge and experience. How he can state that this drug ‘should’ clear the system in 6 days…is something that I hope becomes clear.

I have no idea how long Modecate stays in a horse’s system; I have no idea how it differs from straight flu-phen; I have no idea why whatever blood/urine tests they did before Wiesbaden showed negative, only to have some kind of ‘positive’ be declared through FEI testing.

I do know that Isabell Werth had to expect to be tested–and that this is a different time and technology from the days of Ulla Salzgeber, who also had to expect to be tested at World Cup.

I do know that now, more than ever before, Isabell Werth has to know that she must be squeaky-clean .

I still believe that Isabell Werth is innocent of attempting to give her horse a performance enhancer, and certainly not a sedative.

I’ve gone back to read her statements, and she says quite clearly that the horse had no problem in the arena–and she had shown him several times before Wiesbaden with good results.

What I understand her to say is that the horse in the stall would start to ‘believe’ that it was losing its balance while being wrapped,bandaged, blanketed, whatever…and she was looking for something to make her groom’s life better.

I can only (probably vainly) hope that this case is the one that makes the FEI realize and acknowledge that its zero-policy stance is truly outmoded; that the time has come for horse sport to join 21st century sport and design some kind of policy that actually is beneficial for horse welfare.

“it can’t clear in six days”

wrong. It depends on what form of the drug is given. There are longer and shorter acting versions.

“There is also a question whether shivers is genetic or is genetically predisposed. Although not proven, it is suspected that there is some hereditary component.” The Horse magazine.

Some days are better than others for some shivers-affected horses. In general, this is considered a progressive, debilitating disease with a poor prognosis. Clinical signs eventually increase in frequency and severity, and muscle wasting and weakness worsen. The course of the disease can progress rapidly or take as long as 24 years to render a horse incapacitated. The Horse


“If the condition does not affect performance why use the drug?”

To make the horse comfortable to handle, safe in the stable, and most importantly, to slow the progress of the condition, so the horse remains competitive.

Sadly, for some of them that’s just a matter of time. If it was my horse I’d try to push back that time as much as I could.

I have seen, in fact, mild shiverers who performed very well on the flat, but were unsteady to shoe; in fact, I had no idea the horse was a shiverer til I happened to see the farrier shoe him. The horse is manouvered into a corner and leaned against a wall to be shod.

When there were draft horses around a lot it supposedly was much more common.

That suggests either a genetic component common to those breeds or a common factor in how they were worked or used, that really doesn’t prove anything one way or the other.

There are people out there who say stringhalt is caused by injury to nerves, in fact that was a common theory at one time. Not too many seem to uphold that for shivers, though. There is a ‘shiverer’ syndrome in mice - and demylenated nerves accompany it.

I don’t think such things as nature/nurture debate matter one way or another in this particular situation.

The drug laws are clear and Isabel violated them.

But once again, the amount found was supposedly very small.

And it might mean the jumper rider’s comments are interpreted in a different way - ‘whatever they don’t find is alright’…it can mean that it is quite common for riders to medically treat horses, and to try to have a routine that allows them to compete and pass drug tests - til the drug tests became more sensitive…

if the drug test turns up positive for very small amounts of medication that have no possible chance of altering performance, does it fulfill the intent of the rules - which is to prevent people from altering performance or competition score/placing artificially.

If a horse is medically treated before a competition, and presents for the competition with an amount of medication in its system that cannot reasonably affect performance/score/placing…is the drug test technology fufilling the intent of the rule?

Probably not. The intent of all the drug rules is not to prevent medical treatment, but to prevent medications that alter scores/placings/performance in the competition.

I don’t believe for a minute that riders of that cabliber and that are good horsemen purposely try to dope their horses.

BUT…the buck stops with them, regardless of who has advised them of what drugs to what and for how long.

Every good horsemen should know what is going into their horse regarding medication.

I think it’s a cop out to feign ignorance, or at minimum, leaving such important details to someone else. Blaming or copping ignorance is no excuse for atheletes in any sport at international levels. Ultimately it is their responsibility to know all is clean, all is well, all is legal.

[QUOTE=Eclectic Horseman;4185955]
This is getting to be like BASEBALL for crying out loud… :([/QUOTE]

No, more like professional cycling… :no:

:lol::lol::lol: But, sadly, horses are not metal bicycles…

[QUOTE=sid;4187517]
I don’t believe for a minute that riders of that cabliber and that are good horsemen purposely try to dope their horses.

BUT…the buck stops with them, regardless of who has advised them of what drugs to what and for how long.

Every good horsemen should know what is going into their horse regarding medication.

I think it’s a cop out to feign ignorance, or at minimum, leaving such important details to someone else. Blaming or copping ignorance is no excuse for atheletes in any sport at international levels. Ultimately it is their responsibility to know all is clean, all is well, all is legal.[/QUOTE]

Ok it is a bit naive to think riders at that level never try to beat the system. They do I work in the industry and when you have vets that are refered to as unbelivable chemist there is a reason. By no means am I saying IW did but just because someone is a great/top rider does not make them a great horseman. You don’t have to be a rocket scientist to know with the sensitve testing availabe now a days most anything isn’t going to be out of their system in 2 weeks. From Eurodressage, In an interview with the German Sport Information Service (SID), Winter-Schulze has commented the Whisper underwent a treatment a few days before Wiesbaden, but it was the veterinarian who said it was safe to compete. Is it a few days or two weeks?

This disappointing indeed…

While fluphenazine may, or may not, help with the shoeing issues associated with ‘shivers’, there are other tranquillizers that could be used to help manage the problem within 6 days of showing that have an ‘established’ detection time and do NOT have the associated health risks. The use of ‘Modecate’ has long been associated with the attempt to medicate ‘hyper’ horses. The list of potential negative side effects known in humans boggles the mind when considering using it in an entirely different species from that in which has been tested. Take for example the use in the 90’s of human source erythropoietin (EPO) which was determined to be the cause of immune mediated anemia, and the subsequent death of several race horses (and rumour has it…the great horse Jus de Pomme).

I remain an advocate of reasonable detection parameters for therapeutic medications. I am, however, appalled at the flimsy excuse for using a known doping agent (with potentially life threatening side-effects) by a competitor who has held herself to be the antithesis of (and scornful of) manufactured performances (a la AvG).

I must remind myself to give my head a shake before championing ‘reputable’ upper level competitors ever again :no:

Well, my motel crappy internet access just ate the long excerpts from some case reports of adverse effects, and I’m too tired to redo it.
Suffice it to say that they are, when they occur, soewhat akin to the eighth circle of hell.