It was diagnosed
How do we know for sure the horse has Shivers? The vet diagnosed it!
esedation not wanted
Why would any rider deliberately give their horse a sedative?
A dressage horse needs all the physical strength he can :yes:get.
canyonoak, it is not the vet’s job to tell the rider/manager of the horse the withdrawal times of prohibited Rx. I might ask my vet what s/he thinks, but if it was important to me and I had a show coming up, I’d place a call to the governing body. People here do it all the time.
I would have a bit more sympathy if this was a topical substance that had been regularly used and was not considered performance enhancing (fluphen most certainly has that rap) and the test had just recently been perfected to detect it, much like capsaicin in Hong Kong (although there certainly is a performance enhancing way to use that particular substance so testing for it may have some merit). But fluphen? This is not new stuff and succesful testing for it is not new. Like I said, if a lowly ammy rider in 'Merka knows 90 days is the number off the top of her head, what excuse could a gold medalist offer that holds any water?
Safety of the rider.
Didn’t you just say that above in a prior post? 
look at it this way
An owner pays big $s to buy, have trained , maintained a and qualified for international competition a horse who, starts to have "problems,:eek: becomes dangerous to be handled; neurological condition is diagnosed; cannot be "fixed , only managed; what would you do?Whose business is it that the horse has this condition?
it takes a team
top of her head, what excuse could a gold medalist offer that holds any water?Most riders at that level don’t know and can’t be bothered:confused: that’s why they have grooms, stable managers and:yes: assistants, vets and team managers, chefd’equip.:yes:
Ummm, it’s the business of the FEI, USEF or whoever else you intend to show under, perhaps?
DISCLOSURE. That’s certainly what I would do. Or not show…
Sorry. As the “Person Responsible” it is their duty to know. Or suffer the consequences. :no:
resperine?
Is , or was this the same as reserpine?This was not able to be tested for for :no:years and when it was they were able to, they looked / at earlier specimens and busted:eek: a lot of big names
this is from www.thehorse.com
<<At the 2008 American Association of Equine Practitioners convention, held Dec. 6-10 (2008) in San Diego, Calif., Keith Soring, DVM, presented material (on behalf of Tom Tobin, PhD, of the University of Kentucky’s Gluck Equine Research Center) regarding withdrawal times and therapeutic thresholds of medications in horses. A threshold is a defined concentration of a “regulatory analyte” (an analyte being a chemical substance that is the subject of analysis) in blood or urine, and withdrawal timelines are linked to these thresholds. A drug’s withdrawal time indicates a suggested timeline by which the last dose can be administered before an event to avoid blood or urine test levels that exceed the allowable regulatory threshold. Using these thresholds encourages standardization of post-competition drug testing and allows optimal use of therapeutic medications without violating the rules.
Soring explained that zero tolerance (no traceable drug allowed in a test sample) is an ever-changing standard because no chemist can test down to zero. He presented a real-life analogy, describing 1 nanogram as comparable to one second if you are 32 years old, while 1 picogram is comparable to one second if you are 32,000 years old.
Giving an example of a commonly used medication, he noted that 2 molecules of phenylbutazone (Bute) are a zeptogram (parts per sextillion) and a 3-gram dose of Bute generates more molecules than there are stars in the known universe. With a half-life (the time required for half the amount to be eliminated by natural processes) of 7.2 hours, it takes 21 days to eliminate all these molecules from the body following a single Bute injection. In contrast, the withdrawal time for Bute is usually 24 hours for racing competition, based on a particular threshold amount allowable in the plasma. Bute retains a therapeutic effect for only a day, although detectable traces remain in the blood for almost three weeks.
Soring recommended that the wide variations in thresholds eventually be brought under one umbrella so everyone is following the same rules and using the same labs with similar techniques for testing.>>
Yes, if you want someone to find something in the lab, you most certainly can and will.
[QUOTE=DMK;4188389]
canyonoak, it is not the vet’s job to tell the rider/manager of the horse the withdrawal times of prohibited Rx. I might ask my vet what s/he thinks, but if it was important to me and I had a show coming up, I’d place a call to the governing body. People here do it all the time.
I would have a bit more sympathy if this was a topical substance that had been regularly used and was not considered performance enhancing (fluphen most certainly has that rap) and the test had just recently been perfected to detect it, much like capsaicin in Hong Kong (although there certainly is a performance enhancing way to use that particular substance so testing for it may have some merit). But fluphen? This is not new stuff and succesful testing for it is not new. Like I said, if a lowly ammy rider in 'Merka knows 90 days is the number off the top of her head, what excuse could a gold medalist offer that holds any water?[/QUOTE]
agreed.
[QUOTE=canyonoak;4187481]
I’m the one who suggested conspiracy, and I was wrong [/QUOTE]
so you were wrong about the conspiracy of someone sneaking something to the horse, but now you are on to the conspiracy of the lab technicians being extra diligent? come on.
No. No. No.
If you read the statement made at AAEP Convention, you will see that you can find evidence of just about any substance .
I am merely suggesting that given the growing dissension within the German Federation, it is easy to believe that someone told the lab to find evidence of something/anything.
If you run enough tests, using enough technology, you can find just about anything you want.
[QUOTE=Carol Ames;4188355]
How do we know for sure the horse has Shivers? The vet diagnosed it![/QUOTE]
Oops you’re right… There could never be a vet with questionable ethics…My bag.:lol:
[QUOTE=canyonoak;4188443]
this is from www.thehorse.com
<<At the 2008 American Association of Equine Practitioners convention, held Dec. 6-10 (2008) in San Diego, Calif., Keith Soring, DVM, presented material (on behalf of Tom Tobin, PhD, of the University of Kentucky’s Gluck Equine Research Center) regarding withdrawal times and therapeutic thresholds of medications in horses. A threshold is a defined concentration of a “regulatory analyte” (an analyte being a chemical substance that is the subject of analysis) in blood or urine, and withdrawal timelines are linked to these thresholds. A drug’s withdrawal time indicates a suggested timeline by which the last dose can be administered before an event to avoid blood or urine test levels that exceed the allowable regulatory threshold. Using these thresholds encourages standardization of post-competition drug testing and allows optimal use of therapeutic medications without violating the rules.
Soring explained that zero tolerance (no traceable drug allowed in a test sample) is an ever-changing standard because no chemist can test down to zero. He presented a real-life analogy, describing 1 nanogram as comparable to one second if you are 32 years old, while 1 picogram is comparable to one second if you are 32,000 years old.
Giving an example of a commonly used medication, he noted that 2 molecules of phenylbutazone (Bute) are a zeptogram (parts per sextillion) and a 3-gram dose of Bute generates more molecules than there are stars in the known universe. With a half-life (the time required for half the amount to be eliminated by natural processes) of 7.2 hours, it takes 21 days to eliminate all these molecules from the body following a single Bute injection. In contrast, the withdrawal time for Bute is usually 24 hours for racing competition, based on a particular threshold amount allowable in the plasma. Bute retains a therapeutic effect for only a day, although detectable traces remain in the blood for almost three weeks.
Soring recommended that the wide variations in thresholds eventually be brought under one umbrella so everyone is following the same rules and using the same labs with similar techniques for testing.>>
Yes, if you want someone to find something in the lab, you most certainly can and will.[/QUOTE]
Now why hasn’t this common sense prevailed?
Because the vets aren’t making the rules.
The people making the rules think they understand ‘zero tolerance’ but don’t get the real science involved…just ask any non-scientist what a picogram is…
This still doesn’t explain away why IW (or anyone from planet earth) would admit to administering a known doping substance within a week of competition.
(edited - as I mis-read the two weeks - nevertheless…in Canada under national not FEI rules with much less sensitive testing, competitors have been advised that the withdraw/detection time is 45 days. It is known to be used as a very long acting medication.)
huh? they found a drug that the owner said was given six days before testing and the trainer/rider said was given two weeks before
huh? they found a drug that the owner said was given six days before testing and the trainer/rider said was given two weeks before
Huh??
nope. Read it again. No one said it was given 6 days before testing.
[QUOTE=SGray;4188621]
huh? they found a drug that the owner said was given six days before testing and the trainer/rider said was given two weeks before[/QUOTE]
Over here in Europe… Gray is considered wisdom, but maybee we should change this.
[QUOTE=Carol Ames;4188397]
An owner pays big $s to buy, have trained , maintained a and qualified for international competition a horse who, starts to have "problems,:eek: becomes dangerous to be handled; neurological condition is diagnosed; cannot be "fixed , only managed; what would you do?Whose business is it that the horse has this condition?[/QUOTE]
Retire the horse, maintain it in comfort. You have those big bucks, you can afford to do so.
