To answer the question who’s next… it’s Michael Withaker.
Maybe the problem is not as german as some people like to believe.
Not only german show jumpers.
To answer the question “who’s next” - it’s Michael Withaker.
Maybe the problem is not as german as some people like to believe. 
The FEI has kindly provide a VERY short list of acceptable medications (see the “Medicine Box” on the FEI website) with ‘detection times’ (not withdrawal) derived from testing an absurdly small number of horses.
-
You can ‘apply’ to FEI to have your horse tested at their labs for withdrawal times for just those meds (not cheaply either) and it should probably be done several times under different circumstances to establish a reliable timeline…but I’d bet that if you did that it would send up some red flags
-
you don’t use any medication on your horse ever!! - which is what the
hardliners (animal rights types) are after…otherwise why the ‘don’t ask/don’t tell’ game about withdraw times?
[QUOTE=Carol Ames;4191657]
I don’t recall seeing a case where this has been proven at the elite international level - and yes, people do get caught at the national level on an appallingly regular basis.What about the German show jumpers?[/QUOTE]
I assume you mean the Hong Kong deal - All those jumpers (just one German, by the way) were punished for ‘medical’ offenses, not doping. The FEI tribunals recognized that capsaicin can be used for medical purposes. (And while capsaicin can be used for performance enhancing purposes - ‘doping’ - the FEI testing procedure could not/ did not show that it had been used in this way.) Therefore these were not ‘doping’ offenses (i.e., performance enhancing), but medical offenses found because of new, more sensitive testing procedures.
those same disclaimers exist for USEF guidelines as well, no absolutes can be drawn here, but it’s not like 6-14 days was close to the 90 day neighborhood that we go by. But I find it especially interesting that a know long acting rx was used on a horse about to compete, and not only a substance that with its long acting nature had already cost one rider his gold medal.
Nobody will argue harder for reasonable thressholds and an elimination of the zero tolerance rule. I think if racing where far more money is at stake can establish limits where performance is not effected, then so can USEF/FEI. And there are so many grey areas around zero tolerance that it is a joke. But it’s not like the problem goes away of certain Rx is allowed, common sense will tell you that. You just change up the topic a bit and instead of using X that is allowed at Y level someone is always going to try and find something else that works a bit better and is not detectable. But I tend to think that somewhere between USEF and FEI tolerances might be a happy balance.
No matter what, it’s hard to defend a positive test for fluphen. It has a history, it’s well known to be long acting, it is most certainly performance enhancing in nature. Also intent to medicate for a valid reason or for more nefarious purposes is simply not relevant otherwise we could all happily swear that the horse needed it for medical reason X and get away with using whatever performance enhancing rx suited our fancy. Most important of all, vets don’t sign entry blanks. I don’t care if they swear on a stack of bibles, it’s not their job to know detection times and only a fool would risk his/her paycheck on it.
since when?..
Does anyone know how long the horse has been diagnosed with shivers?
not perfor Therefore these were not ‘doping’ offenses (i.e., performance enhancing), but medical offenses found because of new, more sensitive testing procedures. __________________
Jun. 27, 2009, 02:30 AM
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those same disclaimers exist for USEF guidelines as well, no absolutes can be drawn here, but it's not like 6-14 days was close to the 90 day neighborhood that we go by. But I find it especially interesting that a know long acting rx was used on a horse about to compete, and not only a substance that with its long acting nature had already cost one rider his gold medal.
Nobody will argue harder for reasonable thressholds and an elimination of the zero tolerance rule. I think if racing where far more money is at stake can establish limits where performance is not effected, then so can USEF/FEI. And there are so many grey areas around zero tolerance that it is a joke. But it’s not like the problem goes away of certain Rx is allowed, common sense will tell you that. You just change up the topic a bit and instead of using X that is allowed at Y level someone is always going to try and find something else that works a bit better and is not detectable. But I tend to think that somewhere between USEF and FEI tolerances might be a happy balance.
No matter what, it’s hard to defend a positive test for fluphen. It has a history, it’s well known to be long acting, it is most certainly performance enhancing in nature. Also intent to medicate for a valid reason or for more nefarious purposes is simply not relevant otherwise we could all happily swear that the horse needed it for medical reason X and get away with using whatever performance enhancing rx suited our fancy. Most important of all, vets don’t sign entry blanks. I don’t care if they swear on a stack of bibles, it’s not their job to know detection times and only a fool would risk his/her paycheck on it.
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Does anyone know how long the horse has been diagnosed with shivers?:confused:
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f the horses’ backs were made less painful; is this not performance enhancing? I know dr. Lengel considered it so, we had many discussions about this
purposes - ‘doping’ - the FEI testing procedure could not/ did not show that it had been used in this way.) Therefore these were not ‘doping’ offenses (i.e., performance enhancing), but medical offenses found because of new, more sensitive testing procedures. __________________
I don’t know Dr. Lengel - I know he’s a USEF vet - and I have never discussed these issues with him or anyone else. However, it seems to me that if the horse’s back is comfortable (i.e., muscles are not sore from major jumping efforts during a 5 day show for instance), the horse should be able to perform to the best of his/her ability. If riders or vets decide to use the substance in this way, I assume they know their horse well and choose to use a substance that will allow the horse to perform to the best of his ability. They can also chose not to use the substance if they feel it doesn’t help their horse feel better. However, when the substance is used on the legs, it can cause hypersensitivity, therefore making the horse painful if he/she touches a fence - this I would call performance enhancing. But that is just my opinion based on what I’ve read - I’m not a vet and don’t claim any special knowledge or experience using the substance.
The whole capsicum thing went way over the top as almost any outright condemnation of almost any substance or method eventually will.
For g’s sake we have condemned sugar (of course aspartame is so much better) butter (of course polyunsaturated fats are so much better) and acetaminophen can cure you or kill you depending how you use it!
While it stretches the imagination, at this time, to rationalize the use of fluphenazine as a truly therapeutic agent in horses, in 5 years we may find that it actually cures shivers ( probably not)…but marijuana is legal (in Canada) within very specific therapeutic parameters (:lol:).
Prohibition failed, the ‘war on drugs’ is failing - zero tolerance is trotting down that same road. We need a rational approach…unfortunately that doesn’t appease the hard-liners…who seem to be holding all the face cards right now.
But, given the current situation since HK with zero tolerance and ultra sensitive testing capabilities, why would IW not declare upfront that her small tour horse had been treated in prior months with a banned substance?
I mean she had to have realized that the top riders would be under the utmost scrutiny. Let alone clients of this particular vet.
Why take such a risk?
Or was she putting herself on the line to prove a point about zero tolerance and medication vs. drugging?
I agree…interesting concept…hard to believe she could be so insulated as to be surprised by the outcome of using a known banned substance. However, if so, why not just come out and say it…fu FN/FEI? (how do you like my alliteration?)
I was wondering if that wasn’t in essence what she was doing: Forcing the FN to take a drastic action like banning her, giving international publicity to the zero tolerance drug issue.
“F-U FEI/FN go ahead and ban your top Dressage rider, just like you banned your top Jumper rider. Now what”?
(I like your alliteration better though! 
)
Well… I would certainly prefer to regard her as a renegade than a dupe(/dope )…
Somebody has to finally stand up against the insanity…who better than the best in the sport?
I’m surprised whomever did this did not think of the adverse effects a human drug could have on a horse. Yes some are fine, not all though. Ick.
"Renn/aissance
I cannot fathom any reason to deliberately give fluphenazine to a horse, especially given its potency and the risk of side-effects, when I am sure there are much better sedatives out there."
IT can be a god send for a long term lameness rehab… Some horses go coo coo for coco puffs and sometimes those horses respond well to it. Every drug has the potential to be bad for horses but this is a drug that does have a place in the horse world just not in the competition ring. IT is not like ACE though or other sedatives where it knocks them out and SOME HORSES show NO change what so ever from it and continue to be who they are!
I seriously doubt Werth is a ‘dupe’. She put her cards on the table at that conference when she said she had the right to treat her horses medically. She is one tough cookie, and I don’t think there are too many people she is afraid of. She’s also a lawyer…
A friend had a version of the Lord’s prayer that ended…“for I am the toughest *** of a ***** in the valley…” I don’t think people stay at that level for 20 years like I.W. and wind up faint of heart. I think it can make people bulldog stubborn, in fact…sometimes…sometimes to their downfall.
I think all the elite riders are incredibly tough mentally. They all have to be to get where they are at. I’ve seen people try to get into the international scene and come home with their tail between their legs, and NOT because they were poor riders or didn’t have a great horse. It is NOT a world for everyone. In a lot of ways we are the lucky ones.
If she is truthful about believing the vet’s advice re withdraw times she is a dupe and if she seriously had no idea about the long long long withdraw time for this drug then she is a dope (or at least lives in a bubble)
[quote=slc2;4192494]A friend had a version of the Lord’s prayer that ended…“for I am the toughest *** of a ***** in the valley…”
[/quote]
That would be the 23rd Psalm 
“that’s the 23rd psalm”
I should have gone to church on Sunday instead of the barn.
“if she seriously had no idea about the long withdrawal time of this drug”
The long withdrawal time has been declared here as “a long time” and “longer than she waited”. Has anyone found any documentation for the drug? No. They are also talking about their experience with fluphenazine in the form and strength and dose THEY use it at and based on their observations, not blood tests, of how long it acts, and they are assuming a lot without any scientific data, and they have no idea how much Isabel’s horse was given, therefore they cannot say whether Isabel’s accepting the vet’s statement is ‘smart’ or ‘a good idea’ or not.
Modecate is actually used in wildlife management when transporting wild animals and moving animals to a new group, so there might be quite a bit of knowledge, even if just by experience, about it being used in large animals. What I found stated it had an effect for several weeks, but no clearance times are given in the articles I found.
Vets and their clients often talk about these things, and since the drug is used in wildlife management I am sure it is not such a big secret to vets what it does or how long it lasts, though they may be going more by experience than lots of scientific data.
There are seven documents indexed by Pubmed on fluphenazine used on horses. One discusses using fluphenazine for fescue toxicosis in pregnant mares.
I really do not believe this drug is so unknown to all vets.
There is something that doesn’t make sense here.
In addition to the long duration of effect, the drug doesn’t work immediately like other tranquilizers, it takes 2 or 3 days to kick in. It just isn’t the kind of thing you use for a single event, like an appointment with the farrier.
If IW was trying to make a statement about the FEI’s NFS policy, I think she would have pick a less controversial substance.
Most of the people I know who take fluphenazine injections are absolutely affected markedly 12 hours of getting it. One fellow I know arrived at the hospital screaming, pounding on doors, running around the ward and leaping on furniture. Next day, he was sociable, calm, talking and sitting on the garden benches chatting pleasantly. Fluphenazine.
Too, most of the people I know who take the injections, are completely psychotic after 2 weeks. They go from being absolutely pole axed on day one to completely psychotic in 2 weeks. It doesn’t stay with most people for a month, at least not in my experience. They get it when they get it because that’s what the county is willing to pay for.
