Why are people being mean to Joseph Newcomb?

[Scribbler]

Ok, thanks!

It sounds like the catalogue is a big enough deal to be a kind of “public publication?” Like a movie or song that you can express an opinion on?

And I suppose it’s relevant whether he was making informed critique, like “here’s a horse I’d buy and here’s one might avoid,” with coherent reasons.

Nevertheless, if you make that kind of critique you can expect pushback. I too am a little tired of people overusing the word “bullying” to refer to any disagreement, though of course I have no idea what the responses really were.

My comment about “all adult men?” was originally going to be “these are all adult men, not middle school mean girls?” But I decided to downplay the snark in honor of the holidays

[AZ_TD]

I finally watched the critique of the PSI auction horses. It was educational. They often stated that this was their opinions. They made their judgements on conformation, bloodlines and gaits, very coherent reasons. If someone has different opinions, they can add them in the comments after the video. It got me to click on the PSI auction which otherwise I would not have looked at. Also looked at the results of the auction to see if their picks matched.

[Scribbler]

This actually sounds really interesting! Where do we find it?

[AZ_TD]

PSI AUCTION REVIEW... JOE AND JESS STYLE.

[AZ_TD]

It will be more interesting if you can look at the psi catalogue before or during this.

[Cowgirl]

I think that everyone is entitled to their opinions. To the extent that this was intended to be informational or just entertainment, I think it did that. Personally, I’d like to see more commentary on gaits, conformation, correctness of geometry in test riding, etc., from video. And I’d like them to explain where they are coming from.

Where I have some issues is the generalizations about temperment for horses that they are not seeing in person or riding. Every horse has a dam and a sire and so many possible genetic variations from ancestors. Rumors get started this way.

But aside from the video, I’m reeling from the prices people are paying for these young horses!!! Are these prices for real?

[Equibrit]

In order to gain credibility in the dressage world you need experience. This kid has none.
In comparison to Paul Shockemohle he is a rank amateur. It’s no surprise he is greeted with derision.
But - he has gone from an unknown regional horse trader to an opinionated wannabe with an axe to grind all over the interwebs

[AZ_TD]

Diaton, PSI Auction Top Priced Dressage Horse €700,000/US$858,000, Bought for...

[ohmyheck]

They seem like nice, genuine people.

Too bad about the use of the word ‘it’ throughout the critique video. It’s not that hard to use the horse’s gender. Such a turn off when these intelligent, giving animals are described as it. They’re not a commodity.

[YankeeDuchess]

I know Joseph Newcomb slightly. I seriously doubt he would describe himself as BNT, even just to himself.
He had been a successful young trainer at a top barn, then signed on as the young horse trainer for EDI. As a seller of expensive, high quality young dressage horses, EDI is a competitor to other such sellers.
While I have not seen the video that caused offense, apparently Newcomb made some critical comments on some expensive PSI horses.
Newcomb then made a video addressing the blowback as bullying.
This incident does not change my impression of Newcomb as a serious, capable young horse trainer and a generally nice guy.
EDI has some excellent horses, and they price them with a very hefty mark up beyond vet, import and quarantine costs. The hefty markup may well be worth it to some people if EDI, like Helgestrand, can establish that their barn is a place where the buyer can see a group of horses who are all rated 8 to 10 on the quality scale. Sure, you can scour Europe and find an 8 for $30,000 less, but if you try that on your own you risk paying $60,000 for a 3.
If they build a reputation that all the horses they offer are really low risk in that sense (You’ll pay a lot for the 8 that you buy, but you avoid the risk of losing a bundle on a dud), it’s a good business model.
Some people want low price for what they buy and will tolerate risk, others may be willing to pay more to avoid risk.

[YankeeDuchess]

Before partnering with Jessica at EDI, he was a young but respected trainer at Steffen Peter’s barn. He is well known and well respected in the San Diego area. He does not compete at the international level, but trainers who specialize in young horses tend not to.

[YankeeDuchess]

The average price of show jumpers in the auction was $500,000 and for dressage horses, only $350,000. I’m relieved.

[Equibrit]

@ohmyheck

They seem like nice, genuine people.

Too bad about the use of the word ‘it’ throughout the critique video. It’s not that hard to use the horse’s gender. Such a turn off when these intelligent, giving animals are described as it. They’re not a commodity.

Oh but they are, to dealers and breeders

[IdahoRider]

@mvp

And not for nuthin’, but installing some rideability and “ability to take a joke” or to be a predictable, uncomplicated ride is perhaps a really great feature that a pro should install into a horse he’ll sell to an amateur.

But, if the pros are selling horses that are predictable and uncomplicated, how can they get their clients to pay them to ride the horses they just spent a big chunk of change to buy?

Without big $$$ horses needing to be “pro rides”, how much money will professionals lose?
Sheilah

[NSC_Los_Angeles]

100% agree with your comments. “It” drives me nuts.

[NSC_Los_Angeles]

That was a great synopsis of their market positioning. I too don’t see this as tarnishing them even in the slightest, though one could fairly say that it was maybe at worst, “bad form.” They seem like a good crew and your description does make total sense.

[NSC_Los_Angeles]

This has been really interesting. As the person who buys green peas in the $25K and under range I’ve found this peek into the thought processes and business models of the more serious buyer pretty fascinating. Big thanks to all who shared.

[NSC_Los_Angeles]

I think you raise an interesting point (that could probably become a whole other thread) around pre-judging temperament based upon pedigree. I actually do this as a matter of default at this point. I had someone FB message me awhile back as they had a Breitling youngster on offer and the dam side was Jazz. I see what they’re trying to do there and respect the thinking a lot. Normally I’d be falling all over myself to go look at a Breitling as that whole Bismark/Duellant old school flavor is 100% my style, but to have Jazz anywhere in the pedigree much less so close in feels so much like a recipe for drama that I don’t even look. Same for UB40, Sir Donnerhall (hit and miss but enough misses in my experience that he’s on my bad boy list), Sandro Hit (not all bad, but enough that I’m like no) and quite a few others. Any babies with a stallion who is on my bad boys list and I literally won’t waste the breeder’s time coming out. Perhaps I’m missing out on opportunities but I’ve had enough predictably bad experiences that I just don’t really even consider these trickier lines.

[Silverbridge]

@IdahoRider

But, if the pros are selling horses that are predictable and uncomplicated, how can they get their clients to pay them to ride the horses they just spent a big chunk of change to buy?

Without big $$$ horses needing to be “pro rides”, how much money will professionals lose?
Sheilah

Not sure about where you are but in every program I’ve been in, the cost of a training ride and the cost of a lesson are the same. People in my barn take daily lessons on some very nice horses that they bought for themselves to ride. These are predictable and uncomplicated types and bought for the purpose.

Some clients also have very nice horses they bought specifically for the trainer to ride, with a different sort of temperament.

No money lost by our trainer when a client takes regular lessons on his/her own horse.

[IdahoRider]

There is a fairly well known national rider here who has horses owned by clients that can’t ride them, because they are a “pro ride”. At my barn we are a more DIY bunch, but training rides and being in a training program are more expensive then just taking lessons. That seems to be the norm here, where dressage is not even close in terms of trainers/instructors that do other disciplines.
Sheilah