Why are people being mean to Joseph Newcomb?

[Cowgirl]

I understand your point of view, however I do not condone the public dissing of temperament without saying where it comes from. I’ve recently bought two foals (the older is 2-1/2 now), seeking very specific bloodlines for gaits and rideability. I have a short list. I have a longer list of bloodlines I won’t consider for me, at least not within 3 generations. That’s personal to me, from my own personal experiences. I’m not going to start public threads to diss the bloodlines I don’t like and name the names of the horses that have brought me to those conclusions–plenty of other people like those bloodlines for other reasons. In fact, I have read very negative things about some of the bloodlines that Mr. Newcomb favors, on breeders forums. Still, I’m not going to repeat what is essentially gossip. I, myself, was once confronted in a Dover Saddlery store by a local dressage person who said to my face terrible, untrue things about the temperament of my older foal’s sire (he is by Toto Jr.) and terrible things about my younger foal’s sire’s fertility (untrue) (he is by Vitalis). (Still don’t understand the point of baselessly denegrating the breeding of my foals to me.) Both opinions spat at me were not based on any personal experience, and couldn’t possibly have any good motive. Some of the commentary on this video also felt like this–not based on personal experience, but gossip. And gossip can, unfortunately, have commercial consequences on your business. Some of the horses that they trashed are actually going to end up in their backyard.

I’d like Mr. Newcomb to detail his personal experience with Totilas decendents–my Toto Jr. son is a saint.

[BigMama1]

I think when it comes to temperament, reputation of a particular blood line is fair game for commentary. Most people understand that not every horse from that line will show the same characteristics, but in well-established bloodlines there are some pretty clear trends. Will every Weltmeyer be opinionated? Of course not, but I’d still prefer to have him as a grandsire than a sire. Are all Jazz offspring hot? I’m sure they aren’t, but it’s not a bloodline I’d choose since I need a forgiving, grandmother-safe temperament. I recently acquired a Rotspon gelding and literally dozens of people have commented about how exceptional the Rotspon offspring’s temperaments are. Rumour? Gossip? Never occurred to be to consider it that way. Is it only gossip if the trend is a negative one?

I doubt any amateur with the budget to buy one of these horses is shopping without the help of an experienced pro, who is likely also critiquing movement, conformation, and bloodlines. I guess the difference is they are doing it off camera. I watched the whole video and as someone who doesn’t have a very educated eye and who doesn’t know much about breeding, I found it really fascinating. I thought they gave pretty frank assessments without sounding mean or catty. When there was something they didn’t like they explained why they didn’t like it. I also liked the insights into potential pitfalls of buying from video alone.

I don’t follow Joseph Newcomb on social media and knew of him only as a skilled trainer with the Peters. If he’s managed to turn that skill and some marketing ability into a successful partnership that’s selling rideable horses to amateurs at a price the market is willing to bear, sounds like he’s doing fine to me.

[NSC_Los_Angeles]

That person is clearly ignorant as Vitalis is well known as a sane guy who produces a sane baby. I saw him show as a four year old at Flintridge with the high winds whipping the flags around and he was dead quiet. Have since seen several of his offspring and have found them similarly well grounded. I think Totilas was a fascinating sire (RIP big fella). I’ve seen quite a few Totilas babies that were definitely pro rides. But then Guadi and Toto Jr. are out there producing wonderfully chill, sane babies. These Guadi kids in particular are just rock solid. I’ve seen three now and they seem to down to earth. I guess my take on this is that buyers have a need to find what they’re specifically looking for, and a framework for assessing the “rightness” of a horse to that buyer’s specific needs is a total necessity. For as many amateurs like me favoring the easier lines, there are also pros and serious competitors who are looking for the exact opposite. I can’t imagine the stallion reputation is impacting sales? But I may be totally wrong there?

[DMK]

The person wasn’t commenting on Vitalis’ disposition, but rather his fertility… Which is absolutely hysterical considering the person he was telling this important information to already had the Vitalis foal.

I think I would have told him that I was promptly going to put the foal back from where it came and register a complaint with the stallion owner, and would that satisfy him? I mean, if I could stop laughing long enough to say all that…

[NSC_Los_Angeles]

Oh wow that’s crazy. You’d need a lot of data to prove infertility as it could be the mares he’d been tried on. There’s a Facebook group that is devoted to smack talk about stallion fertility and it always seemed like a lawsuit waiting to happen.

[Cowgirl]

Craycray since Vitalis is known to be very fertile. I entered into a contract for that foal while the mare was still pregnant with the foal’s older full sister, so it took me, essentially 18 months to get a foal from that contract. Somehow in the game of gossip telephone it turned into that it took 18 months because Vitalis has issues. Mare took on the first breeding. Still this has nothing to do with JN, just that it hit a nerve for me when he was saying negative things about certain breeding. I mean this is how gossip happens: someone on a YouTube says that “Totilas offspring can be difficult” and the next thing you know someone is cornering you in a Dover Saddlery and telling you that your Toto Jr son comes from notoriously difficult bloodlines and that’s why you have to do so much ground work with him (roll eyes here).

Every horse has a sire AND a dam. Some of the nicer stallions are bred to difficult mares to improve them. Some times this works and some times it doesn’t and some times there is blow back on the stallion because of it…

[soloudinhere]

This is interesting because it is my understanding that the Tolmans chose Gaudi specifically (in part, of course) because he offers an out cross with NO Jazz which is rare in North America.

I am looking at a Gaudi weanling, but the dam side has given me some pause as I have heard some things about Sir Donnerhall. Too bad because my current gelding’s mare side is direct Donnerhall and he is rock solid.

[mvp]

None? Joe Newcomb has no experience?

[mvp]

You have a pro with a good, fair-to-the-customers business model, then. Not all of us have seen that to be the norm. But I agree that this might vary with individuals’ experience.

I was the one that brought up the value of the training that makes a rideable horse in this thread.

IME, Dressage World is Industrializing along the lines that Hunter World did earlier. In yestercentury, it was normal for the owner of a horse to do all her own riding. There were lessons but full training with lots of pro rides and the division roles of rider and trainer (that person being the one who teaches the horse) didn’t exist. Today, I think there are more businesses based on a pro doing the training and the client doing more of the riding of the horse that someone else made.

That was the thinking behind my offering some praise for someone who makes a rideable horse out of an athletic, well-bred dressage youngster.

[Jealoushe]

He does a video update and explains his reasoning behind the critique video.

THEY SAW MY VIDEO AND THEY’RE PISSED 🤷‍♀️

Once again I am reminded of the arguments when eventers get critiqued at the highest level and freak out.

If you want to grow the sport, you have to realize that with being main stream comes this type of thing, lots and lots of opinions on athletes and their choices. Either equestrian sport hides behind its elitism and fans just adore or it grows and becomes main stream and riders become public figures who will be judged by their choices and actions.

[BigMama1]

I really didn’t see anything out of line in the critiques in the first place. Maybe it’s because I’m not an expert, but I found the video to be pretty educational.

[mvp]

One foal does not a super-fecund stallion make, tho.

[YankeeDuchess]

The one thing that I thought was sort of aggressive toward PSI was making a point of saying that the videos were deliberately shot to hide a bad walk if the horse had a bad walk.
Valid point to a buyer, but it accuses PSI of deliberately misrepresenting the horses.

[Heinz_57]

@Jealoushe

If you want to grow the sport, you have to realize that with being main stream comes this type of thing, lots and lots of opinions on athletes and their choices. Either equestrian sport hides behind its elitism and fans just adore or it grows and becomes main stream and riders become public figures who will be judged by their choices and actions.

I think he’s just playing the SM influencer game. The PSI vid got him more attention than normal, so he’s got to produce more videos to keep the buzz going. He’s good at it, he’s got the right persona and way of speaking, he reminds me a lot of a motivational speaker.

But it’s still a business, and not one I have a ton of respect for since the sales model is mostly expensive horse flipper: new names and slapping your suffix on and only listing sire/damsire, not actual dam (which would make the horse’s origin/breeder pretty easy to research). FYI, not all horses EDI sells are actually imported, either, despite the business name. Still very nice horses but there are several elements of deception, IMO.

[netg]

If you are selling something, you put it in the best light you can. Be that a car, shoes, or a horse. I expect them to be as flattering as possible. Often folks don’t notice transitions not being shown, or horses who are strong like a board not being shown taking corners. It’s marketing, not dishonesty, and educational to point out how it can be done. I would tend to point those things out to personal friends, not the general public, to help them see - it seems an educational thing.

[BigMama1]

@YankeeDuchess

The one thing that I thought was sort of aggressive toward PSI was making a point of saying that the videos were deliberately shot to hide a bad walk if the horse had a bad walk.
Valid point to a buyer, but it accuses PSI of deliberately misrepresenting the horses.

I thought it was fair and accurate, and an important part of them educating buyers on what to look for in a video. Having walk videos shot like that is a bit of a red flag and a sign to ask for more video from a better angle. They aren’t accusing PSI of misrepresenting anything - just sharing a common trick for minimizing less desirable gaits while showcasing the more desirable ones. Not unique to PSI - a very common tactic when marketing horses. In fact would alert people to be on the lookout for the same thing in EDI videos.

[DMK]

No, but I’m sure we can all agree that after that foal hits the ground, in that particular instance all discussion of fertility is moot. We can also agree that if you want another foal it will be relevant.

[YankeeDuchess]

I don’t disagree with you, but there is often a fine line between “marketing” and “dishonesty”. Especially if there is nothing to go by except the video, the prospective buyer would like to see a simple shot from the side, not hidden by bushes. Shooting horses with bad walks differently from horses with good walks can be self defeating since viewers might assume the walk is even worse than it is once they see the angles and the bushes.

[YankeeDuchess]

What is the deception in not listing the dam on the website? The papers will list the dam and the breeder.
Potential buyers may know about sires but not much about specific dams.

[Heinz_57]

@YankeeDuchess

What is the deception in not listing the dam on the website? The papers will list the dam and the breeder.
Potential buyers may know about sires but not much about specific dams.

I was speaking more to the whole marketing ‘package’ - changing the horse’s name, removing any breeder pre- or suffix, only advertising by stallions in pedigree (who have far more progeny than any mare, so you can’t narrow it down) - together it seems to be an effort to maybe conceal the horse’s background a tad. Perhaps they willingly provide all that information privately, I don’t know. I’m not the target market.

You’re probably correct that most of their potential client pool only knows/looks for popular sires, and by itself listing it that way isn’t suspect.