Why are so many halter QH straight legged?

[Scribbler]

I was wondering about the current trend in breeding halter Quarter Horses with very straight hind legs, some to the extent that they really would not hold up as riding horses. You can see what I mean if you just Google “halter quarter horse” images.

This gets criticized heavily outside the halter community, of course.

But I was wondering what the rationale for it was, from the breeder’s perspective? Are extreme post legs the trade-off for some other quality, or are they desirable in and of themselves?

[camohn]

For one I don’t think halter horses are by and large owned by people who actually ride. That’s all they do is halter. So they have no concept of rideability. Every once in a while you see an ad that says " and he rides too!". That’s sad that you have to make a big deal out of the fact you can ride it. The problem really started with impressive. He was the first to sport the look. Since he began to win people ran out and started breeding to reproduce it. And thus the cycle began.

[camohn]

For one I don’t think halter horses are by and large owned by people who actually ride. That’s all they do is halter. So they have no concept of rideability. Every once in a while you see an ad that says " and he rides too!". That’s sad that you have to make a big deal out of the fact you can ride it. The problem really started with impressive. He was the first to sport the look. Since he began to win people ran out and started breeding to reproduce it. And thus the cycle began. Halter used to be something you did with a horse until you rode it. Now it’s an end
/ a career unto itself .

[DMK]

Because the natural trend of almost everyone is 'IF SOME IS GOOD, MORE MUST BE BETTER", so that plumb line you draw from the butt down to the hock and down t the ground kept getting straighter and straighter - no sickle hocks here! I’m sure it’s also a function of all that muscling as well.

It really is a breed unto itself, it’s not like the other disciplines within the breed go looking for a good halter sire for their performance mare.

[MuskokaLakesConnemaras]

I see NOTHING redeeming about that conformation

[mvp]

I think it started with a gaskin that was close to vertical making the hamstrings look more bulbous. They want the ass of the horse to look like a big, fat lollipop; go ahead and make the stick vertical. Also, I can’t explain it, but I think the habit of photographing these horses from below distorts their conformation… if we stand back up and expect to see the same contrast between the back of the rump and the gaskin.

Remember that the ideal AQHA “model” was supposed to show all.that.muscle that makes the breed fast, agile and good for cow work.

So you could build that muscle via conditioning. You could breed for heavy-muscled animals. And when that wasn’t enough (or you got lucky as a breeder and had one that was pretty bulky but also post legged… so he looked more buff), you bred for the boney conformation that leant itself to the picture you sought.

It seems to me that the tiny feet and post-legged build have the same basic cause in terms of selection criteria.

[malinda]

Current? No, this has been going on in QH breeding for decades already.

The reason breeders choose this conformation is because it’s what the AQHA judges pin at shows.

[Marla_100]

[QUOTE=malinda;8447998]
Current? No, this has been going on in QH breeding for decades already.

The reason breeders choose this conformation is because it’s what the AQHA judges pin at shows.[/QUOTE]

This ^^^^^. The AQHA breeders I’ve known, in general, were not what I’d consider well informed breeders as far as conformation and structure.

They tended to breed to the latest winners with no consideration to how well that animal would mesh with another. I also don’t believe they bred for certain traits
as much as that’s just what evolved through the years of picking show pen winners rather than sound, well conformed specimens.

[SusanO]

Because it makes them look more like a Brahma bull??? As an friend said that was actively showing in the higher level Western Pleasure shows " You don’t ride those horses".

[NancyM]

Because people who live in a “free” country may make any decision they think is a good one, even if other people do not think it is a good decision. People are allowed to make mistakes, and hold opinions that are counter to what other people think. Different people have different “looks” and “styles” regarding horses that appeal to them, those being the reasons WHY they are attracted to horses, and own horses, and invest money into the equine industry. And when these horses “win” in a competitive class (even if only a halter class), the breeders are awarded for their decisions. And when these horses are so crippled that they can no longer get around, they are still worth 20 cents a pound. The horses pay the price of the human’s decisions and actions, as they always do.

[BroncoMo]

As said above, that’s what places. Why it places? I have no idea. Money? Politics? Lack of knowledge on conformation? There’s reasons I left the halter pen many many years ago. And it wasn’t this bad when I left. But you could see it going that way.

On the subject of “and he rides too!” in sale ads; notice, when it says that, the horse generally doesn’t place well in halter and needs a new career path. The “great” halter horses don’t ride, and no rider can ever halter at a high level successfully. I will ask, please don’t judge the whole association on the bad decisions of one discipline.

[poltroon]

I think also many of these people are accustomed to breeding and evaluating meat animals, where that conformation doesn’t look shockingly wrong and dysfunctional. Go look at pictures of champion hogs and you’ll see what I mean.

Some of those horses can barely walk.

I am appalled that judges pin it.

[oldernewbie]

[QUOTE=camohn;8447139]
For one I don’t think halter horses are by and large owned by people who actually ride. That’s all they do is halter. So they have no concept of rideability. Every once in a while you see an ad that says " and he rides too!". That’s sad that you have to make a big deal out of the fact you can ride it. The problem really started with impressive. He was the first to sport the look. Since he began to win people ran out and started breeding to reproduce it. And thus the cycle began.[/QUOTE]

Poor Impressive! He gets blamed for so much of what’s bad in the QH world, but if you look at the picture below, he was not post legged. His back leg conformation may not be sport horse ideal, but it was not straight. And he certainly did not have the droopy diaper rear end that is so popular (:eek:) now.

http://horsetalk.co.nz/2015/07/14/spotlight-quarter-horse-disease-impressive/#axzz3ush8JfPL

Here’s a typical ranch bred QH for comparison. They aren’t that different…

http://www.ranchworldads.com/classified.php?listing=53591

Just for the record, I think halter horses of any breed have become a caricature of whatever the breed standards happen to be. Arab, Morgan, QH - all pretty icky.

[camohn]

[QUOTE=oldernewbie;8448237]
Poor Impressive! He gets blamed for so much of what’s bad in the QH world, but if you look at the picture below, he was not post legged. His back leg conformation may not be sport horse ideal, but it was not straight. And he certainly did not have the droopy diaper rear end that is so popular (:eek:) now.

http://horsetalk.co.nz/2015/07/14/spotlight-quarter-horse-disease-impressive/#axzz3ush8JfPL

Here’s a typical ranch bred QH for comparison. They aren’t that different…

http://www.ranchworldads.com/classified.php?listing=53591

Just for the record, I think halter horses of any breed have become a caricature of whatever the breed standards happen to be. Arab, Morgan, QH - all pretty icky.[/QUOTE]

No but impressive started the trend. He was more heavily muscled . He won. People started to replicate the look because he won… And it kept getting more extreme from there. at the time is was not known that part of his look had to do with
HYPP. What aggravates me now it is known/ testable. But people actually still breed HYPP positive horses on purpose for the look.the AQHA has at least gone to no longer registering double positive HYPP horses. The APHA doesn’t even do that.

[poltroon]

Impressive actually even raced. His performance career was cut short by pedal osteitis, not his hind leg conformation. He was pretty functional in his shape, particularly compared to what is winning in the halter ranks today.

AQHA has achievement awards that combine halter and performance points. They had to add a “performance halter” division for functional horses, because it got to the point where it apparently became impossible for the same horse to win in the halter classes and any performance classes (even western pleasure). That should have been a sign that the halter division was off track, not a signal to make a new division with different criteria.

[Foxtrot_s]

If the horse has to do anything it has to have Form to Function…whatever your taste may be, it has to be able physically to do the job, even if it is in a field that many of us are not keen on. Conformation for a variety of disciplines is different in different animals. Post legged in halter - well it does not have to do anything but show itself standing around. Cruel, really.

[Scribbler]

@poltroon;8448189

I think also many of these people are accustomed to breeding and evaluating meat animals, where that conformation doesn’t look shockingly wrong and dysfunctional. Go look at pictures of champion hogs and you’ll see what I mean.

I looked up photos of champion hogs and beef cows, and indeed they look quite similar to halter horses with those very straight back legs. So that’s actually a very interesting theory!

http://www.millershowpigs.com/winners/2011/kendal-vierra.jpg

[rememberthenight]

No, my 4h leader used to tell me in order to place a quarter horse class, you needed to place them like you would an angus class- although he worded it- place em like “you want to eat 'em”!!! Unfortunately when I did, I won every competition…

[crosscreeksh]

A vet of ours back east had a major “halter horse” breeder for a client. He said the foals were weaned early and force fed 24 hours a day. Almost always confined to a stall, too!! The vet said they were ALL too lame to walk…let alone run and play!! Another disgusting trend in the horse world!! Poor horses are raised to look like Angus…and usually meet the same end!! They don’t usually even bother to break them to ride!! Why bother??