Why aren't Morgan Horses more popular?

[QUOTE][In addition to people pushing horses that aren’t right for the discipline, I’ve also found it disappointing how many Morgans are out there that are super behind in their training. I’m talking 7-8 year olds that aren’t even broke. That’s just too much of a project for the majority of ammies and most pros are looking for big warmbloods to build their scores and reps. The owners try to say “oh well Morgans live so long anyways” or “they don’t have any mileage so they’ll be sounder” or “they’re so smart and tractable they’ll make up the difference right away” but realistically an unbroke 8 year old is a hard sell even if it’s a super fancy warmblood at a bargain basement price.QUOTE]

I was hoping someone would mention this. I’ve been looking for a new eventing partner and for several reasons, have been seeking out a Morgan to try. As someone new to the breed, the late start on several I have asked about is surprising to me. At least half a dozen of the ads I’ve found within a day of me have had horses past 6 that were unbroke or just started. How do breeders afford to keep horses for so long without doing anything with them?

Also as a newbie to the breed, how can I find a non-park type of Morgan to use for eventing without any background in lines or reputable breeders? I’ve actually found a few in Canada that look more capable in training and temperment than I’ve seen locally. But that means importing fees, I assume.

1 Like

[QUOTE=TBFAN;n10621071]

Also as a newbie to the breed, how can I find a non-park type of Morgan to use for eventing without any background in lines or reputable breeders? I’ve actually found a few in Canada that look more capable in training and temperment than I’ve seen locally. But that means importing fees, I assume.

Check Denny Emerson’s FB feed. He knows a lot of Morgan folks.

3 Likes

[QUOTE=TBFAN;n10621071]

[In addition to people pushing horses that aren’t right for the discipline, I’ve also found it disappointing how many Morgans are out there that are super behind in their training. I’m talking 7-8 year olds that aren’t even broke. That’s just too much of a project for the majority of ammies and most pros are looking for big warmbloods to build their scores and reps. The owners try to say “oh well Morgans live so long anyways” or “they don’t have any mileage so they’ll be sounder” or “they’re so smart and tractable they’ll make up the difference right away” but realistically an unbroke 8 year old is a hard sell even if it’s a super fancy warmblood at a bargain basement price.QUOTE]

I was hoping someone would mention this. I’ve been looking for a new eventing partner and for several reasons, have been seeking out a Morgan to try. As someone new to the breed, the late start on several I have asked about is surprising to me. At least half a dozen of the ads I’ve found within a day of me have had horses past 6 that were unbroke or just started. How do breeders afford to keep horses for so long without doing anything with them?

Also as a newbie to the breed, how can I find a non-park type of Morgan to use for eventing without any background in lines or reputable breeders? I’ve actually found a few in Canada that look more capable in training and temperment than I’ve seen locally. But that means importing fees, I assume.

Honestly I’d 10x’s rather have a horse that was unbroke at 6 than a horse that was started at 2 or 3. I got my current Morgan at 6, she wasn’t even halter broke.

3 Likes

That’s where we differ, I guess. I do not want to spend 5K on a barely handled 8 year old with a breed I’ve not worked with before. What I don’t understand, is why that seems to be so common, at least in my limited searches.

2 Likes

Can’t speak for.Morgans, but for Arabs, it tends to be ex halter horses.

1 Like

[QUOTE=TBFAN;n10621071]

Also as a newbie to the breed, how can I find a non-park type of Morgan to use for eventing without any background in lines or reputable breeders? I’ve actually found a few in Canada that look more capable in training and temperment than I’ve seen locally. But that means importing fees, I assume.

ive bought a few horses from Canada and sold a few there over the past 20 years. No major import fees, other then a small fee at border crossing. It has been several years, but it was under $100. Of course, I paid shipping too, but no more then shipping within the US. If you find a horse you like in Canada, ask the seller if they know what the fees will be. I think you’ll be pleasantly surprised. There is no quarantine required, unlike bringing in a horse from Europe

1 Like

Most of the In Hand Morgans cross over into English Pleasure/Park Saddle/Park Harness. They aren’t typically strictly In Hand horses. So, they are normally started at 2/3 in Harness. I’m pretty sure I saw almost all the 2+ year olds in other classes at this year’s World Championships. The only ones that are strictly there for In hand are the yearlings.

Price wise, from what I’ve seen, growing up in the Morgans, the show horses are started early(2ish) and the successful ones that hit the market are probably out of the price range that people wanting to dabble into the breed are willing to look at…especially when they are really not that suitable for anything other than the breed show ring…and they aren’t normally advertised where random people would be able to easily find them. You have to know someone that knows someone…or see a flyer at the shows…or happen to fall upon the Morgan Marketplace/Morgan Showcase. You may be able to find something midrange getting in good with a training barn…finding a fancy lesson horse and getting a deal (5-10k). Anything that has had any sort of success…or even has the potential of having success in the ring is going to be above that almost immediately…I actually just looked at one ad for a gelding that hasn’t even been proven in the ring and they are still asking 25k…what the what?!? …mind blown…

You have the ones that are trained at a normal age and people like them and keep them…forever…and ever…and ever…(the market price on these would fall into the category price range that is 2 paragraphs below…and would also include the green broke mid-aged/4-6 year olds)

You have the ones that are trained and not as successful that hit the market and those are still going to be in the 5k range…unless you live up in the PA/Northeast area and can hit one of the Morgan Auctions…you could probably pick up a nice amish trained horse for sort of ‘cheap’…before it ends up down a crappier path. Many of the ‘repurpose’ amish horses are still being listed for 5-7k though. …but who would know that if you are new to the breed?

And the ones that are listed and in the ‘lower’ price range(on average 2-5k) are untrained/green broke…either young…or older…because most of the breeders want their stock to go to credible homes, and if that means the horse sits on their property for 2,3,5 years, then that’s what happens. They also don’t breed a ton of horses, so yeah, the horses can sit around and grow up. I just read an article of one breeder in Florida who has had a breeding program for over 30 years, but has only produced 21 foals because she is so particular about what she produces. And, she has produced World Champions out of her stock. Blessing and a curse to the breed. But, honestly, I’m okay with it. I’d rather have quality foals than quantity and no where for them to go…not that I want the breed to dwindle, but I admire the responsible breeding programs.

The ones that are lower than 2k are either lame, rescues, caught up in some sort of liquidation of herds, or 20+ years old…and possibly not broke…still…lol. There are exceptions, of course, but you better do a vet check, or just know that something is probably up…

Just my observations over the years.

3 Likes

Out of curiousity, I’ve just looked up the webpage for the British Morgan Horse Society. With a different horse culture, there is a big focus on performance, such as working equitation or eventing. The most expensive listed for sale was £8000. That is fairly pricey for a UK horse. All the breeders webpages are really amateur.

When I was Morgan hunting, I didnt notice many unbroken older horses. Those I did find tended to be mares that I suspect were going to be bred but, for one reason or another were not. In fact, middle-aged geldings that were not expensive show horses were fairly difficult to find. People just dont sell them that often! I did find a number of green/badly trained horses from private sellers who likely thought they could train on their own.

Both my geldings were younger than I might have otherwise preferred. I really didnt want to undo saddleseat training. My 4 yo was from a small local breeder who bred for good athletes and was green broke appropriate for his age. My 6 yo went from a hobby breeder to a farm as a yearling, to a dealer at 4, then to the previous owner. He was very green mostly because previous owner came from stock horses and did not get the Morgan personality!

I agree that many sellers push their horses as suitable for a discipline when they know nothing about the requirements for the discipline! And outside of Morgans, I am still befuddled by the number of ads I see for teen aged horses with “potential to finish your way!”

[quote="“tabula rashah,post:84,topic:467054”]

Back in January my wife bought an eight year Morgan Buckskin gelding that had prior “training”… the abuse he suffer must have been terrible. It is now April, we have had him two and half months… different horse now… but still a little untrusting. Everything has had to be started from the beginning even though be was “trained”. Poor guy.

He will be a nice one

1 Like

Part of the issue with Morgans not being trained is that so many of the breeders are older, and probably not really wanting to climb on a 3 year old, even one with the vaunted Morgan temperament. There are probably way more “pets” out there. One breeder I know has started young horses for years, but at her age has decided that she will only start the ones from her breeding program now, because she knows them.

The show ring trained ones can be really iffy for sport, but it depends on the trainer. There are a few breeding programs who have horses go both ways; Queens River is a good example. They have breed ring world champions, but also some nice dressage horses. Same bloodlines, different focus.

The sport trainers I know love Morgans but say they are quite different from WBs etc. They tend to be smart, and mischievous, and little or in the words of the trainer I first had my mare with, “gave me vertigo because she’s so quick… like a sports car, vs. a luxury sedan.” (Mine was trained when I bought her, but we were not trained as a team, and that caused enough problems that I chose to have us go into a training program. She’s… quirky. Incredibly safe, but quirky.)

1 Like

Jon May is friend of ours, and producer for HorseTVToday and Horse Flicks he put together this documentary on the Lippitt Morgans as Sport horses

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FpuGUVW9XU

https://horsetv.global/

3 Likes

Well, Clanter, that was fun! Delayed my daily exercise walk whilst I watched it. Thank you.

My one comment: all the examples of versatility seemed to be in the Breed Show. Being being a “world champion” in an American breed show is not as testing, or as high profile as an FEI driving cometition or an all-breeds dressage, or a USEA event. That is where the Morgan needs to be seen, doing well on a wider stage. But then, there was a comment in the film about breeders “breeding for preservation not performance”. Time for a change of philosophy perhaps?

They actually have had success in the FEI CDE/Carriage world.

Pony FEI Driving -singles and pairs
https://www.morganhorse.com/upload/photos/1878novdecci2011.pdf

More results from the single pony from 2011:
http://www.catalystdriving.com/shell…rsresults.html

And

PVF Peace of Mind - 2015 USEF International Horse of the Year
http://www.horsestarshalloffame.org/inductees/86/pvf_peace_of_mind.aspx

In 1986, the World champion from the Multiples division at the Morgan World Championships also went on to win the European Pairs Dressage Championship.

http://www.drivingdigest.com/articles/147-driving-a-morgan-offers-endless-possibilities

There is a current FEI Dressage horse that tore up the Morgan Nationals in both classical dressage and western dressage this past October. I need to get to a meeting, so I don’t have time to pull the name, but he was a treat to watch in the WD Freestyle.

While obviously not in the numbers as some of the ‘popular’ FEI breeds, determining versatility by FEI ability is a little unfair to any breed. And, I wouldn’t have thought of any FEI horse as being truly versatile…they are bred and raised specifically for that job…just like many of the Morgans(and dang near every other breed) are bred and raised specifically for the jobs that they are intended for. The uniqueness comes from the horse you can take from a successful show ring career and put them in the competitive trail circuit, where they perform successfully on the National level, and then take them into the cow pen and sort cattle on them. Maybe not award winning sort times or FEI level endurance horses, but their willingness to DO is where their value lies. And, again, if others can’t see it, or aren’t willing to take the risk to be the ‘abnormal’ one with the abnormal breed, then so be it. I never once had someone at an eventing trial ask what breed my horse was…and we received regional end of year awards…because no one cared. lol.

2 Likes

A breed demonstrating success in its own breed show to people who already love the breed doesn’t seem like a strong advertisement for that particular breed in the wider world, which is why I used the FEI as an example. Thank you for links to other Morgans doing well.

In FEI pony driving in Europe probably the majority of people, from many nations, drive Welsh ponies. The Welsh are still a highly versatile breed and, in the UK, are not bred for driving in particular.

3 Likes

A breed that has, historically, been bred for versatility is unlikely to be at the top of the heap in any multi-breed discipline in which it competes against purpose-bred animals.
This is commonly the case with breeds such as Morgans and Arabs.
For some of us, part of the charm is in their ability to adapt to a number of different types of work.

On the other hand, even within the bubble of breed shows, we now have halter horses, English pleasure horses, and hunter and Western horses. There is far less overlap than there once was.
One rarely, if ever, sees a versatility trophy (and worth bragging rights) such as was common years ago.
I, for one, mourn the passing of the jack of all trades with correct type and conformation.
But I am a dinosaur.

4 Likes

I just watched the video on Lippitt Morgans that was posted above and now understand your comment on determining success based on breed shows…because that is all that video did. And, you’re right, success on that level, while still is great in its own right(in most cases), should not be considered the ‘highest level of competition’ within that discipline. Honestly, the over fences division for the last 6-8 years has been down right laughable and embarrassing. Where a horse is being crowned ‘World Champion Jumper’ just because it refused 2 times and didn’t get DQed…and the other 2 horses refused 3 times and got DQed…every time…I mean, I guess they were the okayest ones that showed up that year…but it’s still totally embarrassing.

I don’t know what the ‘fix’ to it is. It’s hard to say ‘campaign more on the open/world circuit’ because for the vast majority of people, that’s not an economically viable option. We’ve done expos, shown on the open circuit(which is hard in a QH based judging world), done breed presentations, parades. The only way to truly practice showing over fences is to do it in Open competition…and the ones that normally sweep in OKC are the ones that come from the open circuit. Same with Dressage and Reining.

The reining horses now are really far more reining bred then they were from the video footage above(while is was released in 2016, that footage is from the very early 2000s and prior…because I knew most of those horses…). People have taken genuine interest in breeding a horse that was made for reining, rather than ‘making’ a horse do reining because you want them to and them being mediocre at it. The Morgan World class schedule for the reining horses is scheduled around the open reining championships that are normally on the front end of the typical Morgan World show dates. They started taking that schedule into account so the nicer reining horses could have a chance to come showcase their talent at the Morgan show, as well as on the open circuit, because, again, you’re right…if they are actually good at their sport, they will go actually compete at the highest level, and the morgan show is not that for those divisions.

I follow a breeder in Australia who has superb stock, but it’s expensive to export horses and bring in new blood. Her horses are priced in what I would consider a typical range, but they don’t seem to get much attention…because no one knows anything about the breed…there are only 650 registered Morgans in the entire country. Same with a breeder in New zealand…he has AMAZING sport horses. I drool over her stock every time she posts something to instagram and wish I could import one.

And, lastly, something that just came to mind…there is little to no prize money for the sport divisions on the Morgan circuit. The money is in the ‘performance’ horses…and that’s even comical when you look at the other breeds. I feel like that is a huge deterrent in bringing new people into the breed…especially parents funding their kids junior ambitions. Why pay mid/high range for an unproven horse to throw a ton of money and time into training it and never have the ability to even earn scholarship money? I wasn’t allowed to take home a cent as a Junior Exhibitor…even when competing in the Open division. That’s crap.

Anyways…yeah, I don’t know what the answer is. I think it’s easy to say ‘they need more representation on a larger scale’ but I just don’t see it happening on any other scale than it already is. The breed is in a rough spot…very divided. It’ll be interesting to see what happens with it through the rest of my lifetime.

1 Like

Yes…this. True versatility(in the actual sense of the word) has been lost in many of the horses. And it is sad. I think a lot of this string of replies has misconstrued versatility for the entire breed and versatility of the individual… In my eyes, the versatility of the individual is far more important, and you are completely right that the majority of the major breeders have been moving away from that type of animal for quite awhile. I will mourn with you, but also feel blessed that I have one, and have had many that is/were capable of doing many things. I actually got a picture of a memorial banner of a horse that was owned by a good friend of the family, Funquest Chabuk(pronounced Sha-Book). What an amazing animal. If the picture is too small, the banners read National Titles in Classic Pleasure, Road Hack, Hunter Pleasure, Western Pleasure and Versatility(ridden/driven/over fences). What. A. Horse. Tragically lost far too early in his life.

3 Likes

At one of the Morgan shows here last year, someone sponsored a versatility trophy. Had to compete in at least 5 categories (and there were something like 11 to pick from). Except for the one who sponsored the tropy, NO ONE else signed up for it. I would have, except we didn’t end up going (lost a mare to colitis at the same time). I so wanted to go for that too. Was going to this year, except that show’s been cancelled.

I personally love the versatility of the breed. Want to ride? English, Western, what type? Drive, sure, we can do that too! Don’t feel like arena riding, trails here we come. I have riding ADD, so my boys do pretty much everything. :slight_smile:

Have a new Lippitt baby coming home in the fall, and he’ll be doing a bit of everything as well.

4 Likes

In FEI pony driving in Europe probably the majority of people, from many nations, drive Welsh ponies. The Welsh are still a highly versatile breed and, in the UK, are not bred for driving in particular.

If one were to look at the breed standard, either Welsh or Morgan, a true to type beast should be able to fill the ‘jack of all trades slot’ and that includes one who might be ‘bred for a purpose’. My ‘dressage or sport-bred’ welsh cobs can ‘do working western’, they can ‘do competitive trail’, they can ‘do English pleasure’,…etc. They may not win first place but they can make a reasonable showing. Of course where they ‘excel’ in their own right is dressage but that’s a combination of their breeding and my determination with training and riding. My morgan x welsh cob mare was definitely a jack of all trades and she proved it over and over including being one hell of a broodmare. My firm belief was the combination of her fitting the standard of each/both breeds and her mind/heart produced a more than willing animal with a bit of sass but safe sass. Pick either breed or look to a good all-rounder Arabian (earned my bronze on a Bey Shah gelding of all creatures who had done reining and trail) - and individual with 3 pure gaits, a good heart and willing disposition has the main ingredients to be versatile. How well or not they do in any discipline isn’t just determined on their pedigree and ability but the human’s ability that rides it and be the leader that beast wants to follow/please. You develop a good relationship with a ‘decent’ individual from any of the three breeds and you have endless possibilities.

One thing you hit on in another thread was that ‘preaching to the choir’ doesn’t necessarily equate to attracting more followers. This is very true on this side of the pond with Welsh. Once more focus was placed on highlighting ‘ambassadors of the breed’ that competed in open venues there was new ‘blood’ coming to the table to help grow the breed or at least take the place of many of us breeders who have retired or died. Morgan enthusiasts might want to do more of the same. Then again, I am the first one to point out that the breed (welsh or morgan) isn’t for everyone. I also am relieved that, at least the welsh, aren’t so popular that I can’t even afford my own, if you know what I mean :wink: Sometimes is best to let well known secrets just be.

3 Likes