Why aren't Quarter Horses More Popular in the H/J Ring?

[Parrotnutz]

[QUOTE=Chuckles;4674323]
Ajierene- did you miss this post or are you deliberately choosing not to clarify your statement.

Hmmmm…no…I am stating that the TB influence has always been a part of the AQHA registry, it is currently accepted by the association, and since they make the rules on what they will register, a horse in the appendix registry is a registered QH.

I would say that if the AKC, Arabian, and Morgan associations started their registries with the influences you are holding as and example and that if they continue to accept them, then those animals would meet the registries requirements.

AQHA says that horses in the appendix registry are REAL QH, not some poor man’s substitute for a QH. You seem to want to define a QH according to your own agenda.[/QUOTE]

At present the agenda is: If its not a warmblood it’s an “off breed” and not popular on H/J circuits.

Chuckles…since when is an appendix a poor man’s substitute
when a Coats N Tails 3 yr old filly just sold for 65K and she doesn’t even jump

I love my appendix QH’s and will always own them…and every one of them has had the step and then some…even if they aren’t “real” quarter horses.

[Ajierene]

I’m not disputing whether or not the AQHA allows Appendix Quarter Horses to pretend they are full quarter horses. I am not disputing or saying that the AQHA should not allow an appendix registry. I think it would be great if they opened that market like the Arabian world does and allow all part-breds. However, the part-breds can never be full Arabians, they can never get their ‘white papers’, if you will.

What myself and Rugbug are stating are that no matter what you say, if the AQHA wants to claim ‘breed’ status, they cannot allow so many outcrosses.

To clarify the stereotype statement, follow this example.

Person: I have allergies and need a low shedding dog, but I want a registered labrador

AKC Labrador Association: Well, that’s great, we have a labrador here! (Shows person a Labrador/poodle cross…labradoodle). See, we can also sell you a labrador. We have expanded our customer base. We call also take money to register these new labradors, if they pass a performance test of being low shedders. Labradors are great for people who need low shedding dogs. Labradors are such versatile dogs.

Correlation:

Person: Well, I like quarter horses, but I am a hunter rider.

AQHA: That’s great, even though we were started to promote and further a ranch/quarter mile racing horse, we sure do have horses that can do hunters. Take a look at Artful Move - he is a FULL QUARTER HORSE, NOT an APPENDIX! we will sell you a foal out of him and will register more like him (Artful move is 50% thoroughbred).

So, while the thoroughbred started with some Arabian horse and English working horses, they developed the breed, closed the book and no other horse of Arab blood was allowed in.

The AQHA on the other hand, plays both sides- well, yeah, we are a breed…but we don’t want to close our books (like every other breed registry except the APHA and Appaloosa, which has problems as well…) and be a REAL breed because then we would not be able to get money from the English discipline people, because a REAL quarter horse is a ranch horse and a REAL quarter horse is NOT versatile (no breed is versatile, or meant to be-they were all created for a limited purpose).

I like quarter horses, don’t get me wrong, they are a ranch horse breed. There is nothing wrong with this. Why do they need to pretend to be great at the English disciplines also (the word ‘pretend’ is being used here because Krymsun Kruzer is the only FULL quarter horse thus far mentioned as a great hunter horse)?

I just checked one race report to see how much the AQHA ‘needs’ the thoroughbred to further part of its original purpose. Out of 34 horses, five did not come up in pediqree query and one came up as an Appaloosa. One was 50% thoroughrbed, two 25% thoroughbred and the other 25 were 1/8 or less (Rillito and Hialeah Park winners). So, really, the winning race horses are far from needing thoroughbred blood.

The thoroughbreds needed arabian horses to give speed to their work horses…but then they CLOSED THE BOOK. It is past time AQHA CLOSED THE BOOKS.

[Eeq]

I know it’s so sad! Quarter horses have the greatest minds and are a pleasure to ride:)

[RugBug]

@Parrotnutz;4674473

At present the agenda is: If its not a warmblood it’s an “off breed” and not popular on H/J circuits.

Where do you get that? Truth be told, the TB is the poor man’s subsitute in the H/J ring…NOT the QH. Because let’s be honest…MOST QHs don’t fit the bill.

And yes, I understand that the AQHA accepts TB/QH crosses and calls them QHs. It bothers me. :shrug: IMO, it is disingenious. There is no reason to allow Appendixes to be registered as full QH. Let them be Appendixes. Be a breed or be a registry but don’t be one and masquerade as the other.

[tidy_rabbit]

I have a 10 month old colt out of my AQHA appendix mare. He’s by a TB stallion. He’s a cute little dude and will hopefully be a nice jumper for me.

Funnily, when people have asked me about his breeding because they liked his videos here on COTH, and I give his pedigree, they don’t say a word. LOL. He’s going to be a nice horse and I’ll have a lot of fun with him. Just because he isn’t a WB doesn’t devalue him. But it cracks me up that people snub their noses at him when they see his pedigree but they think he’s great on video. Whatever. Who cares? A nice horse is a nice horse, regardless of pedigree. I have several WBs in my barn, and I like this little guy just as well as the big WBs.

[RugBug]

@tidy rabbit;4674572

I have a 10 month old colt out of my AQHA appendix mare. He’s by a TB stallion. He’s a cute little dude and will hopefully be a nice jumper for me.

Funnily, when people have asked me about his breeding because they liked his videos here on COTH, and I give his pedigree, they don’t say a word. LOL. He’s going to be a nice horse and I’ll have a lot of fun with him. Just because he isn’t a WB doesn’t devalue him. But it cracks me up that people snub their noses at him when they see his pedigree but they think he’s great on video. Whatever. Who cares? A nice horse is a nice horse, regardless of pedigree. I have several WBs in my barn, and I like this little guy just as well as the big WBs.

TR…if they aren’t commenting, how do you know they are snubbing their noses at him? Isn’t that your interpretation of their lack of response? I would guess they were just expecting to hear a name they might know. Little Miss Hope had some hops in her. I’m sure Mr Comet will too, even if he is a QH (or 1/4 QH.) :winkgrin: :lol: :winkgrin:

IMO, the only people so caught up in having a WB are the ones that don’t know much about horses or how to evaluate an individual. When I shop or evaluate a horse…I look at anything that meets the criteria I’m looking for, regardless of breed. It’s how I ended up with a WB the first time (was pretty sure I would be getting a TB at that point) and a TB the second (thought I’d be getting a WB). I’ve looked at Paints, Pintos, all manner of WB, TBs, and appy or two, etc. I’ll admit to staying away from the Arabs, Andalusians, Fresians, etc because they really just don’t fit the criteria…but if someone brought me one that did…I wouldn’t snub my nose at it.

[imapepper]

[QUOTE=tidy rabbit;4674572]
Whatever. Who cares? A nice horse is a nice horse, regardless of pedigree.[/QUOTE]

At the end of the day…this is the real truth. A nice horse is a nice horse. I have ridden QHs that are fabulous jumpers and I have ridden QHs that I swear either their sire or dam was a bovine instead of an equine Buy the horse you like that suits your abilities, temperment and likes to do what you want to do and frankly…no judge in the world is going to come up to you and ask you about it’s pedigree and pin it accordingly They are sterotypically unpopular in the HJ world because people buy into sterotypes :lol: as in TBs are hot and crazy, WBs are dumb and lazy and Apps are just plain nuts :winkgrin: Yes…some lines aren’t suited for the hunter ring…but if you do enough research you will see that in other breeds as well that might be more in fashion. You just have to have the right line and type

[Chuckles]

Parrotnutz- I didn’t claim the appendix is a poor man’s QH, I said it wasn’t.

Love the Coats N Tails, I have one myself. Enjoy!!

Aijeren- one cannot make a correlation between your dog breed and horse breed arguments
The poodle was introduced much later in the Labrador’s breeding creating a mutt
The TB has always been a part of the QH breeding and has always been part of the breed standard. It was not introduced later to take advantage of a demographic.
The phenotype of the QH has not been limited to a ranch style horse, from day one there were ranch types," pleasure" types, and racing types.
The Krymson Kruizer goes back to Three Bars and Top Deck, early TB influences.
The breeders I know who want hunter type horses breed for a phenotype, not TB percentages. There are some outstanding TB mares who have QH phenotypes which make great crosses on QH stallions.
The way I am reading this, is that there is a lack of understanding about the breed and people are more willing to follow some stereotype instead of educate themselves.
Again, you ride the horse, not the papers.

[Chuckles]

Hey TR, I would love to see you little guy and see his mom’s side! My TB geekness is not strong enough to give any educated opinion about the TB side.

[Parrotnutz]

[QUOTE=Chuckles;4674630]
Parrotnutz- I didn’t claim the appendix is a poor man’s QH, I said it wasn’t.

Love the Coats N Tails, I have one myself. Enjoy!!

The way I am reading this, is that there is a lack of understanding about the breed and people are more willing to follow some stereotype instead of educate themselves.
Again, you ride the horse, not the papers.[/QUOTE]

Chuckles…I was making a joke.And I wish I could have been the one whobought the fillyfor 65K…not because of the price, but because of the way she moves. I would love a 3 or 4 yr old Coats N Tails,do you know of any reasonably priced?

I have a Gator Bait mare and a PS Sign the Card gelding at present.

And I totally agree that there is a lack of understanding of QH’s and it is so much easier to sterotype which is my biggest objection.

[Chuckles]

sorry

:o My sense of humor is sadly lacking tonight. Sorry.

I always thought that the PS Sign the Cards looked pretty cool!

I don’t think there is such a thing as a reasonably priced CNT, I haven’t seen a dink yet. I know a 3 filly that is just awesome, super stout, good minded, cute markings 50K +:cool:

I love mine. He is huge (17+) but has now idea how big he is. He tries to fit into tiny places (under low tents,etc.) but nothing really phases him. Do a youtube search for CNT, you should come up with a few.

[Horseforthecourse]

Don’t really like posting videos of the horses as I feel it does them a disservice. I had one person come up last time I posted Caroline’s WB saying that he didn’t jump round enough to win even though he was very green (as in just started over fences this year) and had just gotten a nice 3rd in the Baby Greens at an A show.

My full QH. To find TB, you have to go back 3 or more generations. As you can see from the video, he doesn’t have the stride or power to win over fences:lol: Sorry, that I don’t have any video footage of him jumping some height. This video footage is old as it is, and I regret not getting any footage when I had him at a different barn for a week. You’ll have to take my word for it that he jumps better than he’s built and moves. Pointed towards a Hunter Derby in October with several A shows along the way starting in March. Doing a Joe Fargis Clinic in April too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VL6lETGK4Y

My catch rider’s full QH pony. Bred on a similar line to my horse. Her dam’s sire is my horse’s sire. Headed to pony finals if all goes well. She’s always in the top ribbons at shows and everyone loves her. Sorry about the broken up video that some of y’all will call painful. Jumping clips are intermingled.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AcODTZz9vQ

[2boys]

[QUOTE=tidy rabbit;4674572]
I have a 10 month old colt out of my AQHA appendix mare. He’s by a TB stallion. He’s a cute little dude and will hopefully be a nice jumper for me.
QUOTE]

Ooh. I just looked at him on your website. He is HAAANDSOME! I love me a good qh.

[tidy_rabbit]

@RugBug;4674601

TR…if they aren’t commenting, how do you know they are snubbing their noses at him? Isn’t that your interpretation of their lack of response? I would guess they were just expecting to hear a name they might know. Little Miss Hope had some hops in her. I’m sure Mr Comet will too, even if he is a QH (or 1/4 QH.) :winkgrin: :lol: :winkgrin:

You are right, I am making an assumption. I bred him for me and not to sell to anyone, so I went with what I thought would make a nice jumper. Time will tell. I love him with all my heart.

This is his pedigree…

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/comet85

And this is him last month romping around, about a week after his castration. He’s still a little sore but cute as a button.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXwY5dZPFt0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKu8EAhO3BI

I loved riding his mama before she got hurt. She always went around the course, even if she was a little difficult sometimes. But I had a lot of fun with her. Now I just trail ride her on occassion or hop on her bareback and ride through the snow. Or let a friend ride her… that sort of stuff.

[Chuckles]

very nice

Comet is very nice. It looks like you chose his sire based on what would complement his dam.

Looking at his dam’s side, it looks racing bred to me. Sometimes those lines also make great barrel racers and pole benders (these horses are lightning fast and amazingly quick on their feet). His pluses for me are his hip and his shoulder (from what I could see). Oh yeah, what a cute face!

BTW- not suggesting your guy is a barrel racer, it was a comment on how agile he is!

[tidy_rabbit]

He’s probably going to be around 17 hands. Are barrel racers ever that big? I would totally do it! LOL.

[Chuckles]

17 H Wow! I knew of a few barrel racers that were 16+, 17 gosh I don’t know.

The people who run barrels and poles can make good money. Back in the day (oye I am getting old!) I would have loved to do it. Now I have seen too many really crazy fools. At a barn where I used to board, I found a man who was practicing by himself, the horse had fallen and he had a compound tib fracture. He had been laying there for hours.

At Congress one year, there was one idiot who was on his horse, walking around waiting for his run, with a towel across his horse’s eyes. Not my cup of tea.

[findeight]

@RugBug;4673749

for “Breeds” it’s fairly exclusive to the stock horses (AQHA, APHA and ApHC)

This was in response to the statement Money influenced descisions made by the Registry.

And, Bug, you are wrong.

Many years ago the Arabian folks had a couple of huge dust ups verging on civil wars amongst the membership. One was over the admission of imports to the registry that could not produce unchallenged documentation of pedigree back umpteen years. It included horses from Poland after WWII (the Nazis lost the books or they got bombed away)…ones that had to do 100 day stallion tests and stand for inspection so, IMO, you could actually use them.

Also included horses imported in the 1960s out of various desert countries, including Egypt and Saudi Arabia. You know, obviously Arabian but, guess what? No papers past a certain point and most of those countries had no formal breeding records anyway. Had to go by what the stud farm represented.

Both sides threw alot of money into it supporting their side and it fragmented the organization to the point other splinter registries were formed.

The other huge fight was the discovery that certain Purebred National Champion Park Horses were half Saddlebred…and that shook out to the formation of the NSH group that admitted they were ASB influenced.

Seem to recall ASB ending up in some champion Morgans not so long ago as well. Huge stink…another reason DNA testing got so popular.

Anyway, not restricted to stock type horses at all. But it is all about money…and always has been.

[RugBug]

F8, I don’t think your post says I’m wrong, just that occassionally there are difficulties (destroyed papers or desert horses lacking papers) and people are dishonest (ASB/NSH issue).

Now, if you the Arabian had decided to accept the ASB crosses…well,then you’d have a point. But they didn’t and made them go start their own registry/breed.

@Parrotnutz;4674683

And I totally agree that there is a lack of understanding of QH’s and it is so much easier to sterotype which is my biggest objection.

1. Stereotypes exist for a reason. For example, if 8 out of 10 horses meet match a type/characteristic, why would it be bad to think that that type/characteristic is common? It bothers me when QH people want to deny that A LOT of QHs are short strided. There are exceptions, but it’s not like people are just making it up. A whole slew of QHs are not going to be able to make the strides from a slow canter. I can look at our local sales publication and out of all the QHs listed, I’m sure the majority are not going be suitable for the 3’+ hunter ring. It would be a waste of time to travel across my state to look at them just hoping they were suitable.

2. If a person has $5k -$10k to spend and wants a hunter/jumper, there’s loads of horses, other than the QH (which in that price range is probably going to fit the stereotypes) that will fit the bill. Why waste all the time and money to find the elusive horse that will work?

3. As the budget gets bigger, I’m sure the choices of good QHs improves…but so does the choice of other horses. Unless someone is set on getting a QH, why put in all the effort?

Maybe it’s lazy, but if I had $30k to spend…I wouldn’t immediately think to run out and look at QHs. If one came up in my search and looked like it fit the criteria, I’d look. How exactly is that lacking understanding of the QH?

[Equino]

If you had X amount of $$ to spend, went to a sales barn or someone you know who had horses for sale, and were shown horses in your range, one or two happening to be QH, would you turn them down before looking? I may not head to my nearby QH breed farm, but I HAVE looked at various types/breeds. Last time my boss and I ventured out looking for a horse,we were shown QHs, WBs, TBs, a QH/TB, a WB/TB and a WB/Morgan cross at a few different places. Starting out, my boss wanted WBs, and only WBs. We went shopping for three and she came home with a WB, a WB/Morgan and a QH. We didn’t go to any breeding farms, just places that had horses for sale in our budges. Granted, the WB was by farm the most $$, and he was a great guy. She was also happy with the other two and they fit her needs.

My point is, you don’t have to keep harping that QH are not suitable for H/J because 8 out of 10 aren’t the necessary type. What about the two that do? AQHA boasts that their horses are versatile and there are many different disciplines these horses have been bred for. Of course a horse bred to be a Halter horse, Western Pleasure, Reining or Barrel horse is most likely NOT going to be suitable for H/J, and vice versa. That doesn’t mean the ones that are bred and geared to English events are going to be the same type of small, shorter strided horse, and they are not going to be the right type for other classes either.

I think the answer to the original question should be: it is all a matter of preference. Some will be suitable and make it, some will not. Most folks hear QH and immediately think of a small, 15 hand, stocky horse and think,“Ew, no way!” The ones with TB in the lineage is much more likely to succeed and be suitable. There are many exceptions to the rule, and while I think the ones who succeed in the 3’6 and up classes are rare and few, I do believe there are quite a few QHs out there showing in the lower classes, and quite a few being passed off as “WB crosses.”