This is Stanley’s pedigree:
Any comments or opinions? How are the Ironmaker bloodlines? Does anyone have any experience with them?
Your horse’s pedigree reads like a western pleasure QH pedigree. Makes me imagine a stocky QH type, probably chestnut (sorrel) with a star and a hind sock. 
Am I right? Do I win a prize?
I vacuumed. Mopped. Am doing laundry.
Bored 2 tears.
Too bad I got 6 poop’n bastards out in the barn I have to go check on in a while because being inside next to the fire place reading this thread is way better than carving my way to the barns through the snow.
[QUOTE=tidy rabbit;4676913]
Your horse’s pedigree reads like a western pleasure QH pedigree. Makes me imagine a stocky QH type, probably chestnut (sorrel) with a star and a hind sock.
Am I right? Do I win a prize?[/QUOTE]
:lol: Well not quite. He doesn’t really look QH. He looks more Appendix.
Here is a picture of him:
Ironmaker is a WP producer, I believe. So, after seeing your picture, I don’t think he is totally off the mark. He’s not quite as TBy as most Appendix are known to be. The way his neck ties in, a bit low, longish back and long toplines are typical of western pleasure horses. He is adorable though! He actually reminds me a lot of one of my boss’ horses, who is all QH:
http://photos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v1959/134/95/1251447098/n1251447098_30233828_1585.jpg
Here’s some food for thought…
Golden Retriver’s, a breed started in the 1800’s, is a closed book registry. Many of today’s dogs die of Lymphoma or splenic tumors at young ages. It’s genetics. If AKC allowed a more open breed registry, perhaps they wouldn’t have these problems. But instead there is so much line breeding, in breeding, that these diseases are practically the norm. Maybe that is the route AQHA is taking in hopes of not having HYPP run rampant as well as other diseases associated with QHs. They are still a “young” breed in comparison to Goldies, and mares produce one offspring, not litters. So, perhaps the fact AQHA is still allowing TB influence is helping the breed in the long run, before they close the books?
Above all else, I think performance is more important than papers. I would much rather a horse of suitable type and the ability to perform over a papered horse that is lesser quality. But I do respect the ability to trace lines and see who produces what, especially when bred to other lines, whether it is QH, TB or WB. Like others have stated, you don’t ride papers.
Also, those popular Labradoodles Rugbug loves so much (I kid, I kid!), those breeders are known for culling the puppies born without the desirable coats in hopes of creating a new breed. One day they may be successful in producing a new breed. That is basically how Boarder Collies came about-from “Collie Dogs” who herded the best.
[QUOTE=Ajierene;4676887]
OK, I went to look up these horses and compare year birth/year accepted as a quarter horse, et al., right? Because it is this or…vacuuming…again…
So, look what I find…pay careful attention to year born:
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/index.php?query_type=horse&h=TEX+2&g=5&cellpadding=0&small_font=1&l=[/QUOTE]
I am typing slowly here… You likened that talking about Three Bars was like talking about the Godolphin Arabian in reference to TB’s. Since Wimpy, King, Joe Reed came before Three Bars, they would be the proverbial Godolphin Arabian (which may more accurately be Steel Dust).
Oh, here is something to do instead of vacuuming, answer my question about where you got the breed standard for the QH.
[QUOTE=AHorseSomeDay;4676927]
:lol: Well not quite. He doesn’t really look QH. He looks more Appendix.
Here is a picture of him:
http://pets.webshots.com/album/574510950jNlcLL[/QUOTE]
He is cute and actually reminds me a bit of Zippo’s Old Gold’s (WP bred- but it is probably the head and coloration that gets me thinking that way)
I think Iron Rebel produced some race horses. He is the sire of Natural Iron, a very nice AQHA hunter stallion.
It is funny, the Zippo doesn’t jump out on him.
Ahhh damn it! I was going to guess Dark bay with a blaze & two hind socks! UUUUUUUGGGGGG
[QUOTE=Chuckles;4676963]
I am typing slowly here… You likened that talking about Three Bars was like talking about the Godolphin Arabian in reference to TB’s. Since Wimpy, King, Joe Reed came before Three Bars, they would be the proverbial Godolphin Arabian (which may more accurately be Steel Dust).
Oh, here is something to do instead of vacuuming, answer my question about where you got the breed standard for the QH.[/QUOTE]
Actually, Godolphin Arabian is VERY much like Three Bars. The Godolphin Arabian was imported to England in 1728.
Before that, Capt. Robert Byerley brought the Byerly Turk stallion back to England in 1690 and crossing them with native mares to produce the first racing horses.
In 1704, the Darley Arabian was imported by Thomas Darley. They were crossed with the racing mares to further refine the mares and give them more speed.
In 1728, the Godolphin Arabian was imported by Lord Godolphin.
So, you see, many ‘foundation’ horses were not necessarily there at the VERY beginning of the breed, but were carefully selected to help improve the breed. The Godolphin Arabian, similar to Three Bars, was carefully selected to help improve the breed.
The AQHA had enough numbers and approved sires in their first 10 years of being a breed registry that the could have easily closed their books.
I got breed standard from a web search as well as my old horse breed guide books.
[QUOTE=Ajierene;4677072]
Actually, Godolphin Arabian is VERY much like Three Bars. The Godolphin Arabian was imported to England in 1728.
Before that, Capt. Robert Byerley brought the Byerly Turk stallion back to England in 1690 and crossing them with native mares to produce the first racing horses.
In 1704, the Darley Arabian was imported by Thomas Darley. They were crossed with the racing mares to further refine the mares and give them more speed.
In 1728, the Godolphin Arabian was imported by Lord Godolphin.
So, you see, many ‘foundation’ horses were not necessarily there at the VERY beginning of the breed, but were carefully selected to help improve the breed. The Godolphin Arabian, similar to Three Bars, was carefully selected to help improve the breed.
You can find this in many breeds. The difference is, unlike the Quarter Horse, after the breed is established, the book is closed. The Quarter Horse breed has been well established since the 1960’s, if not earlier, in both numbers and type. The book could have easily been closed then.
I got breed standard from a web search as well as my old horse breed guide books.[/QUOTE]
Ok, I see the point you were trying to make now. I guess the TB’s needed 50+ years to get established but the QH could do it in 20-American ingenuity at its best!
The breed standard you are using to support your argument for correct QH conformation is not from the AQHA. It is incorrect to say that there is an upward limit on height(and I can’t find a lower limit for that matter). The rest of it smacks of Foundation Breeders, who are not remotely representative of AQHA.
[QUOTE=Chuckles;4677100]
Ok, I see the point you were trying to make now. I guess the TB’s needed 50+ years to get established but the QH could do it in 20-American ingenuity at its best![/QUOTE]
Well…they had how many sires in the first 10 years? Lets see, Three Bars, King, Wimpy P-1, Poco Bueno, Blackburn, Traveler, Hollywood Gold…wait, that’s more than three sires!
Besides, the only way your argument could stand is if the AQHA has actually closed their books. Are are over 4.5 million horses not enough?
http://www.aqha.com/pressroom/aqhahistory_pressroom.html
[QUOTE=Ajierene;4677124]
Well…they had how many sires in the first 10 years? Lets see, Three Bars, King, Wimpy P-1, Poco Bueno, Blackburn, Traveler, Hollywood Gold…wait, that’s more than three sires!
Besides, the only way your argument could stand is if the AQHA has actually closed their books. Are are over 4.5 million horses not enough?
http://www.aqha.com/pressroom/aqhahistory_pressroom.html[/QUOTE]
Flag on the play- are you really saying that three arabian stallions were the ONLY formative stallions in the TB. Really?
It is YOUR argument that AQHA should close their books, and should have by 1960.
You are forgetting the mare line in both the TB’s and the QH
[QUOTE=findeight;4666546]
And whoever noted there were few TBs above 3’ is right. There aren’t. Same reason, not bred for the conformation that allows a 13’+ step out of a great canter with a stylish jump. Big jump too for those real 4’ Derbies.
The purpose bred horse is becoming the more popular choice.[/QUOTE]
While I agree the “purpose bred horse” is becoming more popular… when was it not popular? I mean. Horses were bred and refined or changed for a purpose.
Also, there are few TB’s above 3’? You gotta be kidding me. I know plenty above 3’. TB’s just aren’t in vogue like they used to be. WB breeding is coming round to the more refined TB like horse.
But back on the Quarter horses… if the horse shows the qualities desired in a Hunter/Jumper and is found by a sensible trainer, the QH will be used in the ring.
If a sensible trainer had the choice between an expensive WB with all the looks that dropped its right knee over ever jump and a slightly cheaper QH with good looks that jumped square? They’d choose the QH.
End o Story.
[QUOTE=Chuckles;4677152]
Flag on the play- are you really saying that three arabian stallions were the ONLY formative stallions in the TB. Really?
It is YOUR argument that AQHA should close their books, and should have by 1960.[/QUOTE]
Foundation sires. Sires that were instrumental in creating the breed. In both examples, sires were carefully selected and bred with local mares.
The Byerly Turk Stallion sired thoroughbred stallions, even though he was not originally a thoroughbred.
Similarly Wimpy P-1 sires quarter horse stallions, even though he was not originally a quarter horse.
In both above instances the breed was not in existence before the sire was selected. The later sires would be used to add diversity of blood, but not type. in the Thoroughbred example, the breed was nowhere to be found. In the Quarter Horse example, the type existed, but the breed was not defined and it was the mission of the AQHA to ‘preserve the breed’ (see AQHA website).
I am saying that if the AQHA had closed their book, like the could have easily done in the 1960’s because their breed was well defined by,numbers, standard and performance; and they developed horses that could excel in hunters through the careful crossing of different lines, then the argument can be held up that quarter horses can be good hunters.
I think it is an erroneous to call something a breed and never close the books.
:lol::lol::lol::D:lol::lol::lol:
That’s what you get for doing research on the internet.
Gals, put down the vacuum and let that dryer buzz for a second while you look at this one. Great snow day laugh. And we need it.
[QUOTE=findeight;4677660]
:lol::lol::lol::D:lol::lol::lol:
That’s what you get for doing research on the internet.
Gals, put down the vacuum and let that dryer buzz for a second while you look at this one. Great snow day laugh. And we need it.[/QUOTE]
I’m glad SOMEONE finally noticed!
I’m not STUCK in my house today, but not going to work either. The only unfortunate part is that I never did my weekly grocery shopping, which is not to big of a deal, except I would like to do it now, but I’m not sure if anything is open.
At least I will get out and see my pony this afternoon.
[QUOTE
I am saying that if the AQHA had closed their book, like the could have easily done in the 1960’s because their breed was well defined by,numbers, standard and performance; and they developed horses that could excel in hunters through the careful crossing of different lines, then the argument can be held up that quarter horses can be good hunters.[/QUOTE]
By now it is obvious how much I love the breed:winkgrin:. I have been able to see some of the evolution of the breed. What is currently happening with breeding is effecting the horses that are sold to the hunter ring and t=to the QH ring.
Saddle seat pleasure used to be an event at QH horse shows Thankfully that has gone the way of the Do Do and AQHA realized that there is nothing about a QH that makes it ideal for a saddle seat class. The first amateur classes were offered in the late 70’s. The change to put emphasis on hunt seat classes (instead of english classes), coupled with the rise of the youth and amateur classes created a new push for a horse that could use itself correctly AND had a great mindset. Ex race horses could not fill the bill for everyone.
The 60’s were not a defining point for the breed. The 80’s and 90’s are much more of a seminal period for defining the phenotype and the performance standards for the QH.
Breeders have discovered that if you cross animals of a specific phenotype and temperament you can create a gifted animal that is suitable for a non pro rider. It used to be bigger is better, breed to any TB mare w/ a uterus, and hope that the result works. This is changing so I say the breed is still evolving.
You think that at no point in the last 70 years, there were enough diverse bloodlines in the QH to avoid line breeding? I find that silly.
Irresponsible breeding is irresonsible breeding…not the fault of a closed studbook. Golden Retrievers suffer for being one of America’s favorite dogs. Too many people can make $$$ off of irresponsible breeding and it is harmful to the breed.
The QH isn’t without it’s “line” breeding issues, just one of which is HYPP. (Weren’t HYPP horses denied registration a few years ago, but someone just mentioned on this thread that that has been repealed? IF so…that’s too bad.) Those stereotypical tiny feet and being navicular prone is the result of irresponsible breeding practices.
Any new breed is produced by crossing and culling. Never said they weren’t. But is the AQHA trying to create a new breed? You would think not, as they have a breed standard, but the practices would indicate as much. With the advent of the AQHA dressage classes…you are going to see even more crossing to get a type better suited. Is this good for the “breed” (which isn’t really suited) or is it another way to capture a wider audience’s pocketbook?
[quote=Chuckles;4677705] This is changing so I say the breed is still evolving.
[/quote]
But is it evolving in a good way? To me it looks like the TB is being over used to produce something that the QH just isn’t (except for the outliers). In, what I think is a misplaced goal to be the most versatile horse around, the AQHA is making a whole lot of jack of all trades, master of none…in the disciplines that don’t naturally suit.
Wasn’t TB blood used originally to increase speed/endurance of the racing QHs? Do you see a lot of TB blood in the Cow horses? (I would guess not b/c it would be counterproductive.) What about the reiners?
nDoc Bar is a common name in alot of Reiner bloodlines just to name one.
And it might surprise you to see that that bulldog build does not translate to the modern Reiner skill set. You need some spark and agility in there and NO downhill, last Cutting I watched, I saw refinement on alot of them as well.
Friend breeds Working Cow Horses (Snaffle Bit Futurity types) and they are quite athletic, uphill and refined compared to what many might think.
Not saying you go cross to a TB to get these BUT they are in there and certain lines are desireable. They just do not look like the old Pics of Wimpy and King any more. That purpose centered breeding has created something different then the old jack of all trades that could stop a 900lb steer on the end of a rope.
We are creating specialists for particular jobs more then used to occur.
