F8: IMO, the bulldog build doesn’t translate well to much of anything other than standing at the of a line. :lol:
But, are you going to see 7/8ths TBs reining or cutting cows? What about 50/50?
Personally, I think the best QHs display the same balanced look of any other breed. Body in three equal segments, nice muscle tone, but not a bodybuilder. (I can’t stand it when someone is trying to sell a QH with a picture of the horse’s butt. So it’s got a huge ass, what about the rest of it?)
Probably more like 20/30% tops. Get you the “perks” while retaining the hip and shoulder angles to produce the slide and good spin. Which, of course, are not the same as to create a big step and round over a jump.
But alot of Reiners and Working Cow Horses are darn nice movers compared to anything else out there. Best ones move like a cat or oil on water like any other great mover.
I had a Three Bars grandson back when (72 maybe) that looked like his grandpa. Three Bars was not tall and had a pretty robust body. So did his offspring whether they went into the Jockey Club as TBs or AQHA as Appendix.
Not what you want, necessarily, in a Hunter but a darn nice using type for all manner of traditional QH jobs…he did need a little toning down temperment wise. My gelding still had the temper, still have the scar:no:.
The AQHA has always reminded me of a circus. There are performers of all different shapes and sizes- from acrobats (performance types like appendix) to the sideshow freaks (halter horses). You will find quarter horses in nearly every discipline but if you compared these horses to eachother they will have few similarities aside from being called QH.
In the past I have done quite a bit of QH showing. I found it highly ironic that the halter horses (who should exemplify the breed standard) were all unrideable or placed very poorly in the riding classes. In fact, at bigger shows they even split the halter division into “halter horses” and “performance type halter horses”.
There is a huge lack of uniformity in the QH breed and I think many people see a nice QH at a H/J show and think TB or WB. Likewise, many “mutt” ponies are usually assumed to be some type of QH or QH cross (at least here in the south central).
As to the people discussing breeding, many of the western type QH have problems with inbreeding/linebreeding (resulting in a slew of problems) and many of the hunter type QH are notorious for having a LOT of TB in their breeding (usually more TB than QH). IMO, a lot of QH breeders are known for breeding anything and everything (which contributes further to the lack of uniformity in the breed).
With all that being said (and coming back to the original topic), I think QH are lovely for schooling shows and lower level classes (in fact I will probably be purchasing another one this spring to use as a lesson horse). You don’t typically see them in rated/upper level division because they typically don’t have the stride or are too downhill. When you do hear of QH in top level h/j competition, they are typically not the “normal” QH and look more like a TB or a WB.
[QUOTE.
But is it evolving in a good way? To me it looks like the TB is being over used to produce something that the QH just isn’t (except for the outliers). In, what I think is a misplaced goal to be the most versatile horse around, the AQHA is making a whole lot of jack of all trades, master of none…in the disciplines that don’t naturally suit. [/QUOTE]
Big surprise, but yes I do see it evolving in a good way. In the late 80’s and 90’s there was an upsurge in the popularity of all around horses that could do the huntseat classes too. That is when some interesting experimenting started (I had one-foundation bred X TB). Not that this ended completely, but the breeders I know breed phenotype to phenotype, they look at the mare’s line as carefully as the stallions, so they are crafting a better product.
I know that AQHA doesn’t dictate the breeding of each individual, which the performance registries tend to do by restricting the books to horses with a certain level of inspection. Look at the papers, but buy the horse.
Interestingly, I would LOVE a 7/8 TB 1/8 QH. Call it a Hippopotamus for all I care, I think it’s a good cross. Then again I think most 7/8TB crosses are pretty nice, especially those of the Irish variety, but I know a very nice 1/8 clyde that has a wicked jump. I guess I show that I have a fondness for the Thoroughbred in general, and I think the prevalence of that cross in the show ring (even other breed rings), hunt field and event barns speaks more highly of the TB than the breed it is supposed to be representing.
I’m not about to get into the breed v. registry debate, but I do find it highly amusing when one girl I know will rip a full TB up one side and down the other about how they are “crazy”, “no good”, etc. etc. but if you look up her QH it’s 7/8ths bred (actually more but you have to be enough of a pedigree geek to go back 9-10 generations with a sheet of paper and make tally marks). It makes me giggle.
To be honest though, I would kill for an Artful Move baby. They are way fashionable and even the nice weanlings are out of my non-existant budget. Not that I need another horse, but even when I can afford one, I know I’ll be shopping with an OTTB budget.
I did see a nice grandson of Artful Move that I wanted desperately. He was just 3, “too small” (at 15.2 and growing), “too fast” (for HUS), and “too high headed” (snickers behind hand since he carried it just above level but lower than my TB) so he was right in my price range. I thought “PERFECT!”. Sadly my job status was insecure and it was a bad time to buy, so I held back. Sigh. I even had this big plan to show and event him with the USEF as The Artful Dodger. I’m sure it’s already taken, but I thought it was cute.
I never said that. Obviously the Goldies are a much older breed, and they do have a lot of genetic disorders. I was pointing out this could be the result of closing the breeding books. That was the only point I was making. I have no idea what the right answer is, or how soon a breed registry should close their books.
Irresponsible breeding is irresonsible breeding…not the fault of a closed studbook. Golden Retrievers suffer for being one of America’s favorite dogs. Too many people can make $$$ off of irresponsible breeding and it is harmful to the breed.
Breeding is a crapshoot. You can do everything by the book and still get puppies with problems. Responsible breeders do everything they can to avoid such issues. My parents used to breed boxers. One of the lines ended up being very predisposed to DM and heart disease. Once my parents realized this was happening, they stopped breeding. Many responsible dog breeders will do and recommend health testing for whatever disease follows a breed, whether or not the parents have that disease (like, with Boxers, they do heart monitors when of age).
The QH isn’t without it’s “line” breeding issues, just one of which is HYPP. (Weren’t HYPP horses denied registration a few years ago, but someone just mentioned on this thread that that has been repealed? IF so…that’s too bad.)
My point exactly-you can breed out these diseases with responsible breeding programs, but it will take generations and generations to occur. I believe AQHA now mandates Impressive bred horses to have their papers stamped with the results, and Appendix QH cannot receive regular papers if H/H or N/H. Obviously the best scenario would be no more registering of any horse who is N/H or H/H.
Those stereotypical tiny feet and being navicular prone is the result of irresponsible breeding practices.
Exactly, not like navicular only occurs in QH, but for years breeders overlooked the small feet on QHs, instead breeding for too big bodies on these teeny feet-especially in Halter horses.
Any new breed is produced by crossing and culling. Never said they weren’t. But is the AQHA trying to create a new breed? You would think not, as they have a breed standard, but the practices would indicate as much. With the advent of the AQHA dressage classes…you are going to see even more crossing to get a type better suited. Is this good for the “breed” (which isn’t really suited) or is it another way to capture a wider audience’s pocketbook?
I never said you disagreed, I was taking another approach against closed breed books that I though was interesting. If AQHA feels by infusing TB blood it is making the breed better in the long run, that is their prerogative. Like Chuckles said, this breed has been evolving over time. While specialized horses are not new, they certainly were not the original standard, and breeding for hunt seat horses is relatively a new aspect of the QH breeders. Supply and demand does come into play here as hunt seat QH become more popular.
But is it evolving in a good way? To me it looks like the TB is being over used to produce something that the QH just isn’t (except for the outliers). In, what I think is a misplaced goal to be the most versatile horse around, the AQHA is making a whole lot of jack of all trades, master of none…in the disciplines that don’t naturally suit.
I believe the breed has evolved in a good way. They went from the goal of producing working ranch horses that raced for fun, to all around horses, to specialized horses and now there is a greater selection of all around horses that compete in classes they specialize in (meaning, your top two can be hunt seat oriented with some western and the other be all-arounded in cow events and patter classes). SO IMO, they really have rewritten the standard over the years, with the goal of producing horses that can do a variety of classes. QHs dominate the 1/4 mile racing, the Reining world, the Cow Horse, and Rodeo worlds. Just because they don’t dominate H/J, Dressage or Event worlds does not mean they are “master of none.” The fact that you can find QHs doing all these various disciplines tells me they really are a versatile breed.
Wasn’t TB blood used originally to increase speed/endurance of the racing QHs? Do you see a lot of TB blood in the Cow horses? (I would guess not b/c it would be counterproductive.) What about the reiners?
I believe yes, TB blood was originally used to increase speed/endurance and than later to give more size and stride. No, you won’t see much TB blood in Reining/Cow horses.
It’s just funny to me because I do look at Appendixes and see all the reasons why AQHA calls them “QHs” even if they are 1/8 QH. I have two Appendix geldings in my barn-both are 7/8s TB, entirely different breeding (one was bred to be a u/s horse, the other an all-around horse with english emphasis). Both are tall and leggy with huge strides, but IMO, that is where the TB characteristics end. They have small(er), refined heads with big jowls, large, soft eyes and fox like ears. They both have longer necks-one has what we joke is “an extra piece” that QH LOVE for the u/s horses and both have a longer topline to make the long and low frame easy. Both have the QH round, muscular butt, with lower set hocks. To me, they look very similar type wise to each other, although from different breeding, and very different from the (OT)TBs that are in the barn as well. One gelding is very closely bred to one of the TBs and still he looks more like the other Appendix.
((and for what it is worth…the intended All-Around horse completely missed the mark for QH shows, but held his own in the A/A hunters, probably should’ve been geared towards mini-medal, low jumpers instead. The u/s bred horse wasn’t fancy enough for u/s at the QH futurities or bigger AQHA shows, maybe would make a nice hunter hack horse, but more likely suitable for the hunter o/f classes if someone wanted to show him AQHA, and has been doing nicely this winter at the rated shows in his Low Hunter debut, we’ll see where he ends up.))
[QUOTE=InWhyCee Redux;4662153]
The right QH will have the stamina. My 14.1 1/2 QH “hony” also competed in competitive trail rides. And, better yet, he never needed special or corrective shoeing or joint supplements, et cetera.
I think you should consider Apps, too; I never met an App that couldn’t jump.[/QUOTE]
I think Quarter horses are good for H/J but olny if you find the right one. I have an App and she is 14.2 hands and still at age 19 jumps over 3 feet. They are truly horses who love to jump…
I’m going to throw Shawnee Acres name into this as well because I’ve been watching her horse sale videos for a long time and have seen the types of horses that she trains, shows, and produces. I hope that she doesn’t mind.
If you had seen the number of rated hunter quality QHs that we have ridden from our two barns alone over the years, we would not even be having this conversation at all.
If you cannot find or pick out an A quality QH in a short amount of time, then you aren’t very good at findng and picking out good hunter horses.
Likewise, if you cannot breed an A circuit quality QH, then you aren’t very good at breeding.
My trainer bred her hunter Appendix mare to a grand prix WB this past year. The foal looks fantastic. Even your fancy WBs have QH in them now.
3’6" + fences are only a very, very small part of the A circuit so it doesn’t really matter if there aren’t a lot of 3’6" QHs in those divisions. A lot of times, those classes don’t even fill. However, there are plenty of QHs showing in the 3’0 and under classes, which is where the majority of people show.
These are simply my own observations and conclusions from being involved with QHs and with rated hunter circuits over the years. I love QHs because they can do GP dressage to GP show jumping to western pleasure to showmanship to barrel racing to racing to reining. You name it, and there are individuals within the breed that can do it.
However, love for a certain breed doesn’t give me or anyone the right to disrepect people and their horses; it is not a justification to belittle other breeds. I have owned and ridden lots of other breeds and have loved the horses just as much. I have only love and reverence in my heart for horses as do many others who post on here; not hate, contempt, or jealousy.
[QUOTE=Horseforthecourse;4679712]
I’m going to throw Shawnee Acres name into this as well because I’ve been watching her horse sale videos for a long time and have seen the types of horses that she trains, shows, and produces. I hope that she doesn’t mind.
If you had seen the number of rated hunter quality QHs that we have ridden from our two barns alone over the years, we would not even be having this conversation at all.
If you cannot find or pick out an A quality QH in a short amount of time, then you aren’t very good at findng and picking out good hunter horses.
Likewise, if you cannot breed an A circuit quality QH, then you aren’t very good at breeding.
My trainer bred her hunter Appendix mare to a grand prix WB this past year. The foal looks fantastic. Even your fancy WBs have QH in them now.
3’6" + fences are only a very, very small part of the A circuit so it doesn’t really matter if there aren’t a lot of 3’6" QHs in those divisions. A lot of times, those classes don’t even fill. However, there are plenty of QHs showing in the 3’0 and under classes, which is where the majority of people show.
These are simply my own observations and conclusions from being involved with QHs and with rated hunter circuits over the years. I love QHs because they can do GP dressage to GP show jumping to western pleasure to showmanship to barrel racing to racing to reining. You name it, and there are individuals within the breed that can do it.
However, love for a certain breed doesn’t give me or anyone the right to disrepect people and their horses; it is not a justification to belittle other breeds. I have owned and ridden lots of other breeds and have loved the horses just as much. I have only love and reverence in my heart for horses as do many others who post on here; not hate, contempt, or jealousy.[/QUOTE]
Very well said!!!
So I guess I am a bit confused by the above post, and I do NOT have the “eye” for movement, so I have to ask:
Are you saying that the QH types that Shawnee Acres has on video on her website are GOOD for the USEF type hunters, or not?
“If you cannot find or pick out an A quality QH in a short amount of time, then you aren’t very good at findng and picking out good hunter horses.”
[B] Yeah, I can't and am not :) I can obviously pick a "nice" horse versus not one, but couldn't tell you a horse that would be perfect for "A" circuit versus "C".[/B][QUOTE=naters;4680171]
So I guess I am a bit confused by the above post, and I do NOT have the “eye” for movement, so I have to ask:
Are you saying that the QH types that Shawnee Acres has on video on her website are GOOD for the USEF type hunters, or not?
“If you cannot find or pick out an A quality QH in a short amount of time, then you aren’t very good at findng and picking out good hunter horses.”
[B] Yeah, I can't and am not :) I can obviously pick a "nice" horse versus not one, but couldn't tell you a horse that would be perfect for "A" circuit versus "C".[/B][/QUOTE]
Yes, her horses are also A circuit quality. A lot of times here, the C shows and 4-H shows are even more competitive than the A shows, so if your horse does well on those circuits, then they will do well on the A circuit. Likewise, a lot of people that show at the A and AA shows in North Carolina also show the 4-H and C circuits.
Although I cannot speak for her on the matter, from what I have seen, some of her QHs are AQHA type, some are USEF type. She has nice ones of both…good enough for my AA junior catch rider to want to show them!
The perfect A horse to most people is the already proven A circuit WB jumping 3’6" and winning everything. This is also the six figure horse. Anything less than that, and the horse just isn’t that good to some people on here. Not even a horse like GI Jazz with his wonderful show record and World Championship.
However, that isn’t reality. If your horse is in the ribbons at all on the A circuit, then it belongs and is a very good horse. If it’s winning or placing well on the C circuit, then it would also do well on the A circuit. Maybe not the huge AA shows, but the local As.
People romaticize the A circuit way too much on here so you may think that it takes some incredible out of this world horse to place at the A shows. It does not. The big AA shows, yes, but not the typical A show.
NC is definitely interesting thus far to say the least!!
[QUOTE=Horseforthecourse;4679712]
I’m going to throw Shawnee Acres name into this as well because I’ve been watching her horse sale videos for a long time and have seen the types of horses that she trains, shows, and produces. I hope that she doesn’t mind.
If you had seen the number of rated hunter quality QHs that we have ridden from our two barns alone over the years, we would not even be having this conversation at all.
If you cannot find or pick out an A quality QH in a short amount of time, then you aren’t very good at findng and picking out good hunter horses.
Likewise, if you cannot breed an A circuit quality QH, then you aren’t very good at breeding.
My trainer bred her hunter Appendix mare to a grand prix WB this past year. The foal looks fantastic. Even your fancy WBs have QH in them now.
3’6" + fences are only a very, very small part of the A circuit so it doesn’t really matter if there aren’t a lot of 3’6" QHs in those divisions. A lot of times, those classes don’t even fill. However, there are plenty of QHs showing in the 3’0 and under classes, which is where the majority of people show.
These are simply my own observations and conclusions from being involved with QHs and with rated hunter circuits over the years. I love QHs because they can do GP dressage to GP show jumping to western pleasure to showmanship to barrel racing to racing to reining. You name it, and there are individuals within the breed that can do it.
However, love for a certain breed doesn’t give me or anyone the right to disrepect people and their horses; it is not a justification to belittle other breeds. I have owned and ridden lots of other breeds and have loved the horses just as much. I have only love and reverence in my heart for horses as do many others who post on here; not hate, contempt, or jealousy.[/QUOTE]
Amen!! You have said many of the same things I have in this thread. 3’6" is a small portion of showing. And a good horse is a good horse regardless of breed, registry, etc.
For those going on and on about QH breeding. It really doesn’t take long to find out which lines of horses are good for hunters and which aren’t with the Internet today. And most QH breeders like to advertise what their horses are good for.
AQHA advertises their horses as “America’s Horse”. I see nothing wrong with this as each is bred for preformance of some kind, which I like.
Personally I love that my “hunter” bred appendix can shine at low level dressage, then do hunter over fences and also trail ride…love the “mind”.
Oh brother. Now this thread is really getting weird. First the RB vs Equino “who gets the last word” debate and now the Shawnee Acres fan club? Wonders never cease around here.
[QUOTE=naters;4680191]
NC is definitely interesting thus far to say the least!![/QUOTE]
I’ll give you an example. A woman brought her nice riders and ponies to the last C show that I was at. One of them was a champion at the C show. The rider and pony were also champions at the following A show.
KC,
Just because I said she has nice horses and that a junior rider that I know wants to ride her horses does not make it a fan club. It just means that we respect her program and what she’s doing with it. And the point is that I have seen a lot of nice QHs in her videos. One I definitely would have bought, but he had already been sold before I saw the ad.
Ahhh heck horse for the course
I liked your first statement better before you edited it… where you asked if I was jealous of S.A.'s program and that her horses and students were winners.
Maybe they are? I don’t know.
How did you know? LOL :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
I wish you NC people would get your darned terminology straight. A local horse show is NOT a C rated USEF show. Call it what it is. Please.
[QUOTE=KC and the Sunshine Band;4680283]
Ahhh heck horse for the course
I liked your first statement better before you edited it… where you asked if I was jealous of S.A.'s program and that her horses and students were winners.
Maybe they are? I don’t know.
How did you know? LOL :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
I wish you NC people would get your darned terminology straight. A local horse show is NOT a C rated USEF show. Call it what it is. Please.[/QUOTE]
You and horse for the course seem to have a “history” making this personal for you KC…can we keep this about QH’s and not take a nasty turn please?
Is there something wrong about her liking Shawness horses? That is without making this personal?
Can’t one thread here stay civil please…this has been an interesting "snowed in thread "for me that up until now I have been enjoying.
Huhhhh? And just when I thought this thread couldn’t get any weirder. I sure hope the snow melts soon before there’s a virtual fist fight.
Wow, that did get weird. Where’s the fruitbat??
Anyway, thanks for the answers. I like to compare videos, but I lack the eye that shows me WHY the movements are different/better/worse. A whole other thread.
Atlanta is going to get snow…can we start the popcorn now? Maybe start on 4H A rateds or simlar noted train wrecks??
Just a little log of the fire here…we each perceive from what we do and know best. I am in a USEF A type barn and, although only did the 3’ Adults, where I did show you needed a little more scope then that to bail Moi out of stupid ammy blunders and still get down the line…basically bought a mediocre 3’6" horse that made a great 3’er. My perception is towards the USEF rateds 3’ and up and it does color my opinion. So did having to go against top nationally ranked horses all the time.
Others are centered on regional or locals and that infuences what they think and how they perceive things.
Maybe don’t jump on those who do think 3’6" when they think rated show quality and don’t diss somebody more locally oriented?
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