AQHA is a breed registry. It has nothing to do with being approved. Yes, an appendix can earn their “white” papers with a ROM but that doesn’t change what is on their papers, or mean their offspring couldn’t be approved if they don’t get their white papers. Maybe I am missing your point, …If somone does poor breeding and has a fugly stallion, whoever breeds to him is following poor breeding standards as well, whether it’s a QH, Morgan or TB. The WB registries are different, and more selective, and I think that is great, but it’s not for every registry. Performance and conformation and other traits matter, but there are unapproved studs out there who people still breed to. Happens quite often with non-papered mares, too. The difference is in who runs a more respectable, careful breeding program. No one can force a person not to breed their horse and that is why there are much fewer top horses than run of the mill “fugly” horses in need of homes.
[QUOTE=Equino;4669271]
AQHA is a breed registry. It has nothing to do with being approved. Yes, an appendix can earn their “white” papers with a ROM but that doesn’t change what is on their papers, or mean their offspring couldn’t be approved if they don’t get their white papers. Maybe I am missing your point, …If somone does poor breeding and has a fugly stallion, whoever breeds to him is following poor breeding standards as well, whether it’s a QH, Morgan or TB. The WB registries are different, and more selective, and I think that is great, but it’s not for every registry. Performance and conformation and other traits matter, but there are unapproved studs out there who people still breed to. Happens quite often with non-papered mares, too. The difference is in who runs a more respectable, careful breeding program. No one can force a person not to breed their horse and that is why there are much fewer top horses than run of the mill “fugly” horses in need of homes.[/QUOTE]
Amen…
Bad breeding is bad breeding. The "american warmblood registry now is approving QH stallions…so what the point of all this.
The QH breeders I have spoken to and all other breed breeders waqnt to make their breeds better not “fugly”
But just like puppy mills there will always be back yard horse breeders too.
I have not seen any “fugly” QH’s at Congress or World where one has to qualify .
At better H/J shows same goes for most horses…but then again, for me its the rare horse I find “fugly” so I will define “fugly” for nthese purposes as badlt bred , bad conformation horses
[QUOTE=Equino;4669271]
AQHA is a breed registry. It has nothing to do with being approved. Yes, an appendix can earn their “white” papers with a ROM but that doesn’t change what is on their papers, or mean their offspring couldn’t be approved if they don’t get their white papers. Maybe I am missing your point, …If somone does poor breeding and has a fugly stallion, whoever breeds to him is following poor breeding standards as well, whether it’s a QH, Morgan or TB. The WB registries are different, and more selective, and I think that is great, but it’s not for every registry. Performance and conformation and other traits matter, but there are unapproved studs out there who people still breed to. Happens quite often with non-papered mares, too. The difference is in who runs a more respectable, careful breeding program. No one can force a person not to breed their horse and that is why there are much fewer top horses than run of the mill “fugly” horses in need of homes.[/QUOTE]
Basically, what I am saying is that if you look at a breed like the thoroughbred, the fugly and the stellar horse are all on equal footing because it is all about bloodlines. The stellar crossbreed will never be able to be registered. They make no bones about it all being about bloodlines.
The European warmblood horses, both pure and not are all on equal footing because it is all about performance. They make no bones about it being pretty much all about performance (or at least primarily performance). While some people to consider that it is a disservice to not include the thoroughbred or arabian side of a Warmblood when looking at performance records, at least the registry acknowledges that they do not tie themselves down with lineage.
The AQHA mixes the two - they say we don’t care about you being fugly or great, so long as the bloodlines are there. But hey, if you are stellar enough, we will let you be a ‘registered full quarter horse’ also! Once this appendix horse gets his white papers, he is equal to that fugly (and by fugly, I do NOT mean average - I mean below average, put together with spare parts and cannot even ribbon in a local show let alone a recognized show). So, unlike the warmblood registries, The AQHA is saying ‘hey, Threes and Sevens, even though you had to jump through a bunch of hoops and prove your worth to be a quarter horse, you are ONLY EQUAL (not better than) that fugly over there that should never be bred!’
This is leaving aside grade horses, because we are talking about horses able to be registered.
To me, the first two types are fine - they have a line drawn (bloodlines in one, performance in the other), while the AQHA mixes and matches to get the prestig. Kind of like your boss hounding you to get something done, then taking the credit when the project goes well. This is because it is not common knowledge that the quarter horse uses thoroughbreds because they call themselves a ‘breed’ (as in lineage), opposed to a ‘registry’ (a place where official records and documents are kept). Yes, they are a ‘registry’ because they keep records, but by adding in ‘breed’ infront, they are denoting lineage. This is the same as the Jockey Club being a breed registry. I have never seen a fugly, registered European Warmblood.
[QUOTE=FoxHillFarm;4668280]
I have been breaking/training horses for 20 years for hunter/jumper, dressage, eventing, and foxhunting circles. While there are exceptions to every rule, my experience has been that qh’s just don’t cut it. They lack the scope, the step, and loose gaits required for upper level showing. I think they are most suitable for the backyard or local show person as an all rounder.
The appendix, however, can be a different story if enough tb blood has improved upon the overall athleticism.
They were bred to work the ranch and they do it well.
Has there ever been a full blooded QH in any olympic competition?[/QUOTE]
are you talking of horse hunters or pony hunters?
ROMs
Just a note on ROM (registry of merit) and appendix registry in AQHA:
The AQ has existed as a breed since the 1940’s. The registry gave its first number to a horse that one the Houston (I think) Stock Show. I think for many years horses had to be inspected or had to have a certain show record to be given a number. After a period of time, only offspring of numbered individuals could be registered. The T-bred influence was brought in through the racers and has helped to keep the breed from being inbred. T-bred influence was so prevalent in the early days that it is ridiculous to claim a Quarter Horse is only a Quarter Horse if it doesn’t have T-B blood in them. A bit like saying a T-B has no Arab in it.
The appendix registry is for the offspring of one T-B parent, or for those offspring of a parent that has not advanced to the regular registry (dam was the offspring of AQHA and TB, didn’t get rom, was bred to AQHA stud, but offspring cannot advance to the regular registry until they have earned an ROM).
An ROM is earned when an individual has earned 10 points in competition. There are AM ROMs, open ROMS, and youth ROMS. When a horse has earned an open ROM they are eligible to move to the regular registry after they have been inspected for parrot mouth.
BTW- the 1/2, 7/8. 3/4. 11/16 T-B vs QH issue is a fallacy. Inheritance is 50% from each parent, and if both parents have desirable traits for a breed, and the breed recognizes them, then it is ok to call them by the breed registry name. Leave fifth grade math out of it
I am sort of getting your train of thought, but I don’t care what breed registry you are talking about, there will always be great examples of the breed, and very poor examples. Not all TBs are cerated equal either-some breed for racing, others for sport horse, and if you study long enough, you will find certain lines that are more suitable for a specific discipline, whether it’s race, dressage, event, hunters or whatever. That’s what the purpose of the AQHA is, it’s just this breed is much more widely versatile. Yes, some lines do cross, like you may see a Youth All Around horse and also a top notch Hunter Under Saddle from the same line. But you’ll very rarely will see a cow horse from that same line. There is always exceptions. Rugged Lark was bred to be a reiner, started that way and then he ended up being a very good All-Around horse. His off-spring have done a variety of classes, but most notably are all-arounded horses, whether they excelled at western classes, o/f classes or pleasure driving, many did it all. This is what AQHA boasts about the most: versatility of the breed.
And yes, you will have a lot of TB in bloodlines. One of mine is 7/8ths TB. His dam has produced many sporthorses, both by TB stallions and by QH (and QH/TB) stallions who were geared towards the hunter ring. His sire is a Rugged Lark son. He was bred to be geared towards english QH events, but he is not a good enough mover for the u/s classes and a bit hot for the hunter o/f classes. He’s more suitable for 3’ equitation or jumper classes.
The European warmblood horses, both pure and not are all on equal footing because it is all about performance. They make no bones about it being pretty much all about performance (or at least primarily performance). While some people to consider that it is a disservice to not include the thoroughbred or arabian side of a Warmblood when looking at performance records, at least the registry acknowledges that they do not tie themselves down with lineage.
Yes and no, with WB’s, it is not a breed registry where all the members are of one specific breed. Like, a QH crossed with an Arabian will NOT be given appendix QH papers. A QH crossed with a non-Jockey Club TB is also not accepted. While certain lines seem to be geared towards specific registries, I don’t get how you can say it’s a breed when a stallion who is registerd as a Hanovarian, with Hanovarian parents, can have his offspring approved as Westphalian or Mecklenburg or Oldenberg, whichever the owner prefers (and is approved into). It’s different, and does not follow the same regulation breed registries such as QH, or TB, etc, do, where specific lines are preserved as part of the breed.
What’s the point of preserving breeds if lines don’t count? Should we all just have grade horses and whoever wants to claim them as their own, more power? This why a non-papered horse will never be accepted into the Hanovarian book, or QH registry, because bloodlines do matter. It’s the same reason AKC doesn’t acknowledge a Aussie/Boarder Collie cross, even if the dog is the most phenomenal Agility dog around.
A question for those in the know re warmblood registries. How many lawsuits have ensued over horses not approved? Especially the above referenced example of a stellar jumper stallion who did not have the desired conformation or attitude, but certainly had the competition credentials?
[QUOTE=Plumcreek;4669522]
A question for those in the know re warmblood registries. How many lawsuits have ensued over horses not approved? Especially the above referenced example of a stellar jumper stallion who did not have the desired conformation or attitude, but certainly had the competition credentials?[/QUOTE]
I would be interested to know that as well. I would bet it doesn’t happen in Europe, but I wouldn’t take that bet in the United States.
[QUOTE=BigDreams07;4666619]
Heres a video of my Quarter Horse. He’s full quarter horse, he has foundation and ranch in his pedigree. Throughbred blood doesnt come in until 1940 on the sire’s side and 1870 on the dam. His parents were both horses but he was 14.1 1/2 so he’s my little midget! Jumps in here are 18" - 3’3. shows range from schooling shows at 2’ to AA shows in the large childrens. We are thinking of doing him in some Greens this year.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZiLJgJUCoI[/QUOTE]
I love this little dude – looks like a blast to ride! :yes:
[QUOTE=Plumcreek;4669522]
A question for those in the know re warmblood registries. How many lawsuits have ensued over horses not approved? Especially the above referenced example of a stellar jumper stallion who did not have the desired conformation or attitude, but certainly had the competition credentials?[/QUOTE]
From what I understand, this does not happen. Europe is a different culture that is more inclined to allows other people certain amounts of control. The United States is full of immigrants who ventured across the pond because they did not want to listen to anyone else. It tends to bleed into everything we do, including registering horses.
for clarification, when I say ‘full quarter horse’, I mean a horse with no other blood after about 1940
The European Warmblood studs are all (as far as I know) state run studs whose names are derived from the region they breed in. Hanoverian in Hanover, Holsteiner in Holstein. With some registries it is ALL ABOUT where you are inspected. Take, as an example, Oldenburg, Hanoverian and Rheinland Pfalz Saar. All three are located in Germany. So, what could happen is you have a Hanoverian mare. She travels to the Oldenburg area and is bred. She is sold, in foal to a Rheinland Pfalz-Saar resident. So, he takes her to the Rheinland Pfalz-Saar inspection and she is registered with this registry.
*NOTE: this is NOT necessarily actually possible between these three registries, but it is VERY possible with certain registries - I need to find the thread with someone with personal experience in this, as in his horse is the result of an above adventure of a mare…
Most of the European Warmbloods are a type more than a breed and have open studbooks.
Here is the thread discussing the stallion Hickstead. It is more supposition than fact (as far as I read…did not read all 15 pages) that Hickstead himself was rejected by the Holstein Verband (Verband is german for association), but posts 40, 60, 70, 75 and 76 discuss other stallions that were presented and not approved.
Hickstead is KWPN (http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/hickstead) so not sure why some people are talking about approval by the Holstein Verband. http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=179361&highlight=stallion+warmblood+approve&page=2
Another thread explains the whole Warmblood thing a bit more:
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32831&highlight=stallion+warmblood+approve
Now, here is my thing - I can understand opening a stud book due to low numbers. The Trakehner studbook had to be opened after the second world war (Trakehner is the only European Warmblood that I know of that considers itself a ‘breed’, not a Verband). Now that the numbers are getting back up there, they are closing it. There was a time when you could breed a thoroughbred, arabian or anglo-arab to a trakehner and have a horse able to be approved full trahekner. No longer, not matter how special your horse is, it will always be half trakehner.
I would yield that the quarter horse has more thoroughbred blood because it needs to keep the numbers up IF two things happen:
1- it did not kick the painted horses out (kind of hurts the avoidance of inbreeding thing)
2-it was working on, at any time, closing the books, which they are not as far as I can tell.
Breeds are defined by a closed studbook. Association Registries are not defined by a closed studbook. Since the AQHA has ‘breed’ in it, it defines itself as a closed book.
Now, if the AQHA defined itself as a registry and was more selective of which horses were allowed to carry the quarter horse papers, yeah, I could see that.
Thanks Ajierene, that is sort of what I thought. Unfortunately, QH breeders (like Americans in general) seem to be all about sueing, and that has shaped AQHA for the last 20 years.
"I would yield that the quarter horse has more thoroughbred blood because it needs to keep the numbers up IF two things happen:
1- it did not kick the painted horses out (kind of hurts the avoidance of inbreeding thing)
2-it was working on, at any time, closing the books, which they are not as far as I can tell."
I don’t know how many living registered quarter horses there are but I think they have topped the 3 million mark in registration numbers, so plenty of QHs. Interestingly, there USED to be a physical inspection by a representative of AQHA in the field (your farm) before an Appx horse with an ROM was allowed into the regular registry. I think the sheer numbers of horses made that financially impossible for AQHA as inspection (mostly for parrot mouth and crypt orchids) ended many years ago.
The paints may have been kicked out, but lawsuits kicked horses with AQHA parentage but any amount of white spots right back in.
So what I get here is the selective, quality breeding for purpose that happens in Europe with Warmbloods is possible mostly because owners do not sue.
OH, this I did not know. Was this recent? (In the last decade?) Or did I just miss it?
I was thinking, it would be interesting to develop the Quarter Horse into a registry defined as the ‘American Horse’ and separate it into something similar to state studs that each would concentrate on their own discipline. A reining specific one, ranch specific, hunter specific, etc. A horse with hunter background can be approved by the reining stud, provided he meets X criteria. That would be interesting…though not going to happen…
(I found it amusing to read that thread to find out the reason for Hickstead’s supposed refusal by the Verband was due to being 1/4 inch to short…)
[QUOTE=Plumcreek;4669810
I don’t know how many living registered quarter horses there are but I think they have topped the 3 million mark in registration numbers, so plenty of QHs. Interestingly, there USED to be a physical inspection by a representative of AQHA in the field (your farm) before an Appx horse with an ROM was allowed into the regular registry. I think the sheer numbers of horses made that financially impossible for AQHA as inspection (mostly for parrot mouth and crypt orchids) ended many years ago.
[/QUOTE]
I am not sure of the crypts, but you still have to have a vet certificate for parrot mouth to allow a horse to advance from the appendix registry. Most people with geldings don’t bother.
I don’t know that allowing excessive white (w/two QH parents) was due to a law suit. Embryo transfer was due to this of course.
Erm, not so. Yes, the Trakehner studbook has always been the one warmblood book that has been “closed”. However, the influence of TB, Arab, and Anglo-Arab has always been, and most definitely still is, an important part of the breed. However, the individuals of these breeds must still undergo inspection and approval by the Trakehner Verband before any offspring is accepted into the registry as a Trakehner. But most definitely not closed to “blood” at present - it is very important to the breed.
Yes the new excessive white rule is fairly recent. A QH can now be double registered as a Paint. The interesting part is that the Paint association limits the registration of QH due to paint parentage.
The formative years of the QH did rely upon performance and conformation, that is how the foundation sires got their reg. #. The breed started officially in 1940 but didn’t have a mission statement until 1946. It would still have needed an influx of unregistered horses to avoid inbreeding at that point. I would say that limiting the reg. book to AQHA and jockey club reg horses makes it a fairly closed book.
Is AQHA the only registry that requires DNA testing?Do you know if the Jockey Club requires it? I am just making an assumption that the Warmblood registries don’t.
[QUOTE=Pally;4669916]
Erm, not so. Yes, the Trakehner studbook has always been the one warmblood book that has been “closed”. However, the influence of TB, Arab, and Anglo-Arab has always been, and most definitely still is, an important part of the breed. However, the individuals of these breeds must still undergo inspection and approval by the Trakehner Verband before any offspring is accepted into the registry as a Trakehner. But most definitely not closed to “blood” at present - it is very important to the breed.[/QUOTE]
My understanding is that part-bred Trakehner colts are never eligible for breeding privileges, though they can be registered. Part-bred fillies are able to be inspected and awarded breeding privileges, depending on circumstances.
http://www.americantrakehner.com/faqs/FAQsRegistration.htm
I am looking for where I read the changes made, but if memory serves correctly, Trakehner stallion to thoroughbred, Arab or anglo-arab mare-resulting filly USED to be able to be registered in the main trakehner book and now they can only be in the part-bred book and either the next generation or one after that can venture into the main book.
[QUOTE=Chuckles;4669936]Yes the new excessive white rule is fairly recent. A QH can now be double registered as a Paint. The interesting part is that the Paint association limits the registration of QH due to paint parentage.
The formative years of the QH did rely upon performance and conformation, that is how the foundation sires got their reg. #. The breed started officially in 1940 but didn’t have a mission statement until 1946. It would still have needed an influx of unregistered horses to avoid inbreeding at that point. I would say that limiting the reg. book to AQHA and jockey club reg horses makes it a fairly closed book.
Is AQHA the only registry that requires DNA testing?Do you know if the Jockey Club requires it? I am just making an assumption that the Warmblood registries don’t.[/QUOTE]
interesting stuff about the early years of the AQHA - I remember reading about how it was formed and the ‘issues’ with what is now the APHA. Interesting that the APHA is limiting registration of colorful quarter horses. I missed the original requirements of being registered as a quarter horse - most of what I was reading was geared more towards the politics behind forming the associations.
Your comments about the AQHA book are interesting and if you look around post 70 of the second thread I posted, you can see two people having a similar discussion about the holstein registry and how closed a book has to be before it is considered a breed. So, no one really agrees definitely on it… I would still say that now, or even 10 or 20 years ago, the AQHA had enough bloodlines that they could close the book and be a ‘real breed’. I still think they should switch to a registry and be the ‘American horse’. That would be pretty cool.
I am trying to remember if Jockey Club requires DNA yet or just blood typing. With the Jockey Club, it is somewhat less important since they only allow live cover breeding.
All European Warmblood registries that I know of require DNA testing. as part of registration.
Had a full QH…could jump with the best of em…would consistently go down a four stride line in six…it was all he could do to try for five…and that was a disaster.
Warmbloods are bred to jump and do dressage, Qh’s are bred to do cow work, race and unfortunately for them, do western pleasure and halter.
There are exceptions to every rule though of course.
I have an appendix QH…showed him over 4’…could adjust his stride to anything I asked and NEVER pulled a rail. He also evented and was good and brave. Still have him in my barn…retired, but still as sound as he could be. If there were more like him, I’d ride them all day. Just found out over the years, HE was just more like a WARMBLOOD and less like a QH.
I can’t believe I forgot about Chuck E’s In Love. Peggy Holmes owns him and is either an r or an R judge. Her horse won the $1000 Hunter Derby in October at Sedgefield.
Maybe QHs are just more popular in my area than other areas. We know how to breed them, we know where to go to find a good prospect, we know how to pick them out, and we know how to train them and most people around here love them. It’s really not that hard to find a QH that is a suitable H/J. I look for the best horse no matter the breed. That’s how I ended up with mine, and so far, he hasn’t disappointed.
I don’t believe that H/J QHs look like WBs. I think they look like QHs because there is so much versatility and variation within the breed, they can look like anything. QHs are now bred for the H/J ring as well. Certain lines now elicit a high probability that they will be H/J horses. There are enough QHs out there, and enough nice ones at that, to where these lines may catch up to the WBs in time.
Oh, is THAT why America came about???
The European Warmblood studs are all (as far as I know) state run studs whose names are derived from the region they breed in. Hanoverian in Hanover, Holsteiner in Holstein. With some registries it is ALL ABOUT where you are inspected. Take, as an example, Oldenburg, Hanoverian and Rheinland Pfalz Saar. All three are located in Germany. So, what could happen is you have a Hanoverian mare. She travels to the Oldenburg area and is bred. She is sold, in foal to a Rheinland Pfalz-Saar resident. So, he takes her to the Rheinland Pfalz-Saar inspection and she is registered with this registry.
What about the imported WBs in America who’s foals can go to a variety of inspections? This becomes all about type, NOT about bloodlines.
Most of the European Warmbloods are a type more than a breed and have open studbooks.
My point exactly, We are arguing type Vs breed. Two completely different situations. IMO, one is NOT better than the other.
I would yield that the quarter horse has more thoroughbred blood because it needs to keep the numbers up IF two things happen:
1- it did not kick the painted horses out (kind of hurts the avoidance of inbreeding thing)
The AQHA wants a horse with a specific amount of allowed white and that is why some horses are not acceptable. Just like the American Boxer Club will not allow white dogs into the registry.
2-it was working on, at any time, closing the books, which they are not as far as I can tell.
Still do not understand WHY they should “close the books.” This is a BREED not a performance registry. A QH is a QH as long as their bloodlines are accepted/recognized by AQHA.
Truth be told, I do agree with you to some extent. It would be FANTASTIC if all the breed registries would govern what types of horses were bred. But they don’t, there is many, many non-desireable horses of every breed roaming around this universe. Including WBs.
Breeds are defined by a closed studbook. Association Registries are not defined by a closed studbook. Since the AQHA has ‘breed’ in it, it defines itself as a closed book.
Considering the definition of “breed” is to produce offspring, typically in a controlled and organized way, breed registries are not supposed to evaluate a horse and only accept what is considered the characteristics that a registry promotes and would like their performance horses to have. All registries have certain guidelines by which they follow (like with AQHA, the white rule, the % of TB).
Now, if the AQHA defined itself as a registry and was more selective of which horses were allowed to carry the quarter horse papers, yeah, I could see that.
??? AQHA IS a breed registry. You can trace every QH back to (I forget how many) founding fathers. You will find a bunch of horses that do not ideally represent the high standards of the breed, but that does not make it any less of that breed due to bloodlines. I have a great grandson of Doc Bars sitting in my barn. 26 year old, you wouldn’t mistaken him for anything BUT a QH, zero TB on his papers. He’s done it all, showmanship to equitation on the flat to hunter hack to horsemanship to western riding to trail. He is FAR removed from the horses you see winning at Congress or Worlds, but he has been invaluable to my family. IMO, he is a great representative to the breed, wonderful mind, great work ethic, athletic and sound as a truck, even though he was bought for a mere $1,500 as a 6 year old.
Wow…you need to look up the NOUN version of the word “breed” not the verb. Maybe that’s why I find your posts so confusing.
WBs are registries (with Trakehners being the exception…and Hanoverians to some extent). The QH is supposedly a breed (noun form of the word), entry into the breed is based solely on correct parentage. BUT, the QH acts like a registry because it allows horses other than QHs to be registered as part of the breed.
It really is pretty simple. A closed stud book is the indicator of a breed. Look at the Arab. They don’t let anything be an Arab that doesn’t have 100% Arab blood.
An immerging breed (i.e. Paints) works toward closing their studbook (one paint parent rule) but until the studbook is closed…it’s really just a registry (QH/TB of color). At one point the QH was an immerging breed…but you can only immerge for so long: It’s been 70 years. It’s time fish or cut bait.
In their quest to be the most versatile “breed” of horse, the AQHA has turned to QH into the labradoodle of the horse world. Would people argue that a labradoodle is actually a labrador? No. Same thing with the QH. Those 7/8ths TB quarter horses are no more QHs than the labradoodle is a labrador.
