I have a great grandson of Doc Bars sitting in my barn. 26 year old, you wouldn’t mistaken him for anything BUT a QH, zero TB on his papers. [/QUOTE]
Except that Doc Bars is the great grandson of Three Bars, a Thoroughbred. So yes, your horse does have TB on his papers. Also Spotted Bull, Custus Rastus, Sweep, etc, etc. There’s a TON of TB blood in even the purest foundation bred QH.
And just about every other champion sprinting thoroughbred looks like a quarter horse, too.
There’s a reason the AQHA is open to TBs. Why cut out a huge portion of your gene pool? Not to mention the fact that the AQHA at this point is an enormous corporate entity. Why would they want to decrease registries? Every new papered quarter horse is money in their pockets. There is room in the breed for several types. Savvy breeders know their bloodlines and breed for their discipline.
Horse shows are no longer just what you do with your ranch horse on fair days. Horses are bred specifically to excell in one particular class. There isn’t any room for a master of versatility now that the competition has gotten so stiff. At lower levels? SURE. But let’s face it. Your national champion WP horse is not going to have the length of stride to be a champion hunter outside of the AQHA circuit, or be small and balanced enough to be a champion reiner. Each discipline asks for different physical characteristics to win at the highest levels.
You’re right. The excessive white rule was eliminated likely because APHA was going to the one paint parent rule which would have left crop-out QHs without a registry at all.
I have a hard time imagining that! I mean, it’s one thing to be SUPER adjustable (my appendix could do anywhere from 3 to 6 in a 4 stride, and I could ask him for whichever number, not just do it by accident) but even most large ponies can usually make the adds work easily. I guess if he was that badly short strided, backwards, or VERY up and down…I knew a small WB/TB that had that kind of stride and had the hardest time making the right stride without full out galloping. The trainer tried really hard to get him to lengthen his stride because he could jump amazing. On the other hand, my boss had a full QH that had no trouble getting down the lines and would pack around a 3’6 course same as if he was doing the Schooling Hunters. He would also rock back and add a stride in the lines just as easily. He was not fancy enough to do much more than 3’ divisions, but it was not for lack of stride or ability to jump. I don’t recognize any names on his papers, so no idea what he was really bred to do, and when I went 5 generations back, I found a TB on the dam side, 6 generations back for TB on sire’s side. Our trainer wanted him advertised as “WB cross” because he felt he’d get sold for more money that way. Probably would’ve, but owner decided to keep him.
[QUOTE=RugBug;4670183]Wow…you need to look up the NOUN version of the word “breed” not the verb. Maybe that’s why I find your posts so confusing.
[/quote]
Seriously, enlighten me. I am using the word “breed” to say QH ARE a breed registry, not a performance registry, so therefore regardless of whether a horse is a POS or a top notch competitor, it shouldn’t be denied papers if their bloodlines prove they are a QH or an appendix QH. My point is that the reason AQHA differs from a WB registry is because of specific bloodlines you can trace amongst the horses with QH or Appendix QH papers.
. The QH is supposedly a breed (noun form of the word), entry into the breed is based solely on correct parentage. BUT, the QH acts like a registry because it allows horses other than QHs to be registered as part of the breed.
You won’t find a horse with Arabian, Hanovarian, Holstein or whatever on the paper. ONLY QH or TB-and only if the TB s papered with the Jockey Club and DNA is now required to be on file for any breeding horse. YES, I agree they allow way too much % of TB accepted, but that is part of what they allow. A horse is allowed up to 7/8ths TB for appendix papers. I personally think that is too much, but that is what the breed registry allows.
It really is pretty simple. A closed stud book is the indicator of a breed. Look at the Arab. They don’t let anything be an Arab that doesn’t have 100% Arab blood.
I agree with whoever said there is enough variety in lines that they can (and should) close the books and not have to worry too much about in-breeding. From what I understand, there is talk about doing so.
Of course QHs will trace back to TB. Three Bars (TB), Leo, Wimpy P-1 (of TB ancestry) and King P-234 (breeding unknown, Traveler, who is also an unknown) are the foundation fathers of QHs. They were chosen to pioneer the QH breed because it was believed each represented what they wanted the breed to be: work horse by week, race horse on weekend, with the conformation they felt was desirable to do it all. As the interest for specialized events has become popular (reiners Vs halter Vs western pleasure, etc), that’s when the breed got further away from the original prototype. AQHA has developed more incentive programs and rewards to try and bring interest back to all arounds, but it seems like there are fewer all-arounds and more specialized horses.
On my old guy’s papers, Doc Bars is his grandfather, and there is no other TB going back that far as Three Bars. If my math is correct, his sire, a Doc Bars’ son, was 7/8ths QH, and bred to a QH mare who has a TB a generation further back than the sire. So, he’s pretty much as QH as they come!
Something I just learned about appendixes advancing to the numbered registry: any horse cannot advance if it tests N/H or H/H for HYPP. Hopefully this is a step towards preserving the breed and more steps will come.
Well, Three Bars is really not considered a founding father of the AQHA like Leo, Wimpy and King… he lived a few years after they did (stood out at Vessels place IIRC, near LA) and well after they assigned those P numbers.
Not knocking anybody but certain families who owned those P numbered studs or their close decendants were the ones who sat down and gave those P numbers out. Some among those families did not like high white, so none were admitted. At least one family raced TBs (and owned a very good Classic winning TB). Nothing wrong with promoting your own horses and preferences but they were after mainly stock type horses using the breeding they preferred-and already owned.
Far as the HYPP deal and advancing? maybe but… it occurs mainly in a certain line and most of those affected are born to QH parents and have no need to advance. So it’s not really as good as it sounds.
I agree with that. Guess I haven’t been able to make out your point in your other posts. But when a breed takes crosses and in effect makes them purebreds, there’s a problem, IMO. That’s what a lot of people are making a fuss about.
I never said any thing other than a TB was allowed in QH breeding…'course I didn’t specifically say you couldn’t use another breed…which is what you ran with. I figured most people are smart enough to know that it’s QH or TB only.
My problem with the “breed” is the Apendix section part which can be then registered as full QH if they get enough points. That nice stallion posted a number of pages back? Half TB. IMO, that is not a QH. An Anglo-Arab will never be an Arab no matter how well they do at a show. A NSH will never be an Arab, either…so they started their own breed. A Labradoodle will never be a Labrador. And therein lies the issue. Your 7/8th TB is not a QH…it’s a cross…and should ALWAYS be labelled as such. AQHA has muddied the waters up horribly with the use of performance points. And to get back on topic…the horses with more TB blood tend to be the better over fences horses.
THE AQHA has no need to continue the point based approval system. There are plenty of QHs out there, so inbreeding isn’t a problem unless they want to do it and call it linebreeding. If you want to be a breed, be a breed. If you want to be a registry, be a registry.
I’ll take your word for it, I really don’t know. All I know is that he was inducted into the AQHA Hall of Fame due to the importance of his contribution to the sport. They felt he was deserving due to leaving his mark in many performance and halter classes, basically impacting the entire industry.
Far as the HYPP deal and advancing? maybe but… it occurs mainly in a certain line and most of those affected are born to QH parents and have no need to advance. So it’s not really as good as it sounds.
Not doubt there is a ways to go, but I hope it is a start. Impressive himself was an Appendix (son of TB Lucky Bars, and maternal Great-Grandsire was Three Bars), so you never know. I knew two Impressive bred horses who had yellow papers, one I do remember was out of a TB (not sure if Impressive was the sire or grandsire), but don’t recall what the other was except that he did have yellow papers.
I never said any thing other than a TB was allowed in QH breeding…'course I didn’t specifically say you couldn’t use another breed…which is what you ran with. I figured most people are smart enough to know that it’s QH or TB only.
I never said you implied any other breed but TB. I brought that up on my point that AQHA allows TBs in their registry but not any other breed. As opposed to how some WB will approve various horses from various lines. This was all part of the breed registry Vs performance registry. It seemed like some posters were saying QH should only be recognized if they meet the performance standards of the breed, and my stance is that’s not the point of the breed. I get what you are saying about all that TB %, but since it’s allowed, it really isn’t the same as a Labradoodle Vs Lab, since the AKC does not approve/allow/recognize such crosses. Right now, in England, breeders are breeding Pembroke Corgis with Boxers to get puppies born with short tails (to eliminate the need to crop tails). Obviously they are not recognized as a Boxer breed dog, but eventually the hope is they will be able to return to Boxer with short tails.
This is completely off topic…but AQHA does have to step in and say enough is enough, or only allow a smaller % of TB at some point.
My problem with the “breed” is the Apendix section part which can be then registered as full QH if they get enough points.
But see this is just where I entered this discussion…a poster was talking about lack of performance when registering QHs, unlike where in WB they must be approved based on certain criteria. If a QH earns his ROM, meaning he performed successfully in the breed shows, and therefore is allowed his white papers, isn’t that similar in theory to the stallion who passes his stallion test? Regardless of where he is approved Vs where he was bred? It really means nothing to me. My Appendix earned a couple of ROMs, but he was a gelding, so I didn’t think it mattered.
And to get back on topic…the horses with more TB blood tend to be the better over fences horses.
Agreed. While there is always exceptions to the rule, I couldn’t imagine going to see a horse bred to be a cow horse in hopes to find a hunter prospect and vice versa.
Ah…I’m beginning to understand your posts more. People were just pointing out the duality of the AQHA…they call themselves a breed registry, but they have this performance aspect that confuses the breed implications. I think people would just like them be one (breed) or the other (performance) and quit calling their crosses the “breed.”
You’re right, earning ROM points is like being accepted into the different books of a WB registry. and again, illustrates the issue with the AQHA. They call themselves a “breed” (meaning solely bloodline based acceptance) but they allow performance based acceptance of QH/TB crosses.
Sorry if I was confusing before! I used to be quite a enthusiast of all things QH and although I haven’t been involved in that world for quite some time, I do jump in to defend.
I think the difference is that the horse is still considered “QH” even if there is an “X” next to their registration number and they have yellow papers. When they earn their ROM, the “X” is knocked off and they receive white papers, but the names on the papers are still there to show the amount of TB in the lineage. No one tries to discount the fact it is still not a full QH. With WB’s, and please correct me if I am wrong, it seems mroe about type and desirable traits. I think you do tend to see lines stay within registry, but you still see them elsewhere, like for example: Rantzau was a TB, his son Cor De Le Bryere was registered as a Selle Francis, and CdLB’s son Corrado was registered as Holsteiner. So just in three generations, you have three registries. It gets very confusing! At least with the QH, whether there is TB infusion, it’s still the same breed registry.
I guess one way it would be more like the way the WB registries do it is if some of the performance associations became registries and held inspections for certain specialized horses to belong to their association, like the National Reigning Horse Assoc., Nat Cutting Horse Assoc, Nat Snaffle Bit Assoc, etc. but that would open the doors to more diversity of a standard even though it’s one type of performance (since a Paint can also be a reiner, etc).
The problem is that we aren’t talking “TB infusion”…we’re talking TBs with a tad of QH masquerading as full QHs.
My WB is registered as Oldenburg NA. His sire was Oldenburg NA and his sire was Holsteiner, who’s sire was a TB. Sire’s dam was a Hanoverian.
On his dam side, it’s a whole lot of Hanoverian and then some Trakehner way back (which may explain his Arab similarities :lol:).
When people ask what he is, I’ll say he’s an Oldenburg and if they want more details, I’ll them that’s his registry but he’s a big old well-bred mutt (which is what most WBs are).
Now, if the AQHA were willing to say that a lot of their QHs were actually crosses (well-bred or not), I’d have no problem. But it’s the passing off of crosses as QHs that bothers me. The AQHA may allow it, so some people see no problem, but when you call yourself a BREED, you should be a breed.
(BTW…I have an issue with the APHA “breed” as well :lol:)
Fair enough! I understand and do agree to some extent on your “mostly TB, tad QH” stance. I guess because I feel the TB is mostly within the english events, and that has only really become popular in the past 20 years or so. It’s not quite as prevalent in other QH events.
What is interesting to note…for the 2009 Congress All Around winner, you have to go back 6 generations to find a TB. And he is stronger English. At Congress, he won the Working Hunter, was Reserve in Hunter Hack, 3rd in Pleasure Driving, 4th in Hunter Under Saddle and 5th in Performance Halter. He made the finals but did not pin in western riding. He also showed in trail. He was “Named Most Valuable Horse - English Category.” He also won the Superhorse of the year award. That, IMO, is a good representative of the versatile breed.
(I don’t know a thing about APHA so nothing to add there!! :D)
[QUOTE=Equino;4671329]
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No one tries to discount the fact it is still not a full QH. [/QUOTE]
To echo Rugbug and give a better illustration of the issue with the AQHA, compared to most European Warmbloods. Some quotes from this thread:
[QUOTE=mypaintwattie;4663176]My favorite QH stallion right now is Hot Ones Only. He embodies what a QH should be- good natured, easy to work with, versatile, and has good conformation and movement.
Skys Blue Boy and Artful Move have also made their mark as sires in the english rings as well, and have many babies that end up showing on both circuits.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Parrotnutz;4665331]http://www.youtube.com/user/chocolua2
this is one of my favorite QH sires…this was back in 99…he has done the 3’6" easily…and he is QH not appendix[/QUOTE]
How about this…I nominate The Krumsun Kruzer as a good representative of the QH breed. Does this mean that I think he will go out and win in the 1st Years? No. Just means I think he is a great ambassador of the breed and I think more QH people geared towards the english events should aim to breed for this kind of horse. He is very well-rounded, has good conformation, is a good mover and does well over fences. I also think he would do just fine as a 3’ Hunter on the H/J circuit. And if you compare the QH Vs TB on the papers-you have to go back 6 generations on the dam side to find a TB, 7 generations back on sire side. So, close enough.
Thank you! Couldn’t find a clip on youtube and I KNOW I saw it. Unless I am thinking of a different horse. I think Linda is the most beautiful rider. Any one know her? I think she’s in VA somewhere?
[QUOTE=Equino;4671665]
Thank you! Couldn’t find a clip on youtube and I KNOW I saw it. Unless I am thinking of a different horse. I think Linda is the most beautiful rider. Any one know her? I think she’s in VA somewhere?[/QUOTE]
He was somewhat recently sold to an amateur, so the videos may have been pulled since he is no longer for sale. I believe Linda is in FL full time now.
Bett Ohio was a bug reason AQHA started DNA testing. This is the story as I recall:
I think there were neighboring farms, one of which had a TB stallion. The TB jumped the fence and was found with brood mares that were both QH and TB. The mares were supposed to be in foal to a QH stallion, but one of the TB mares was not. She was bred by the TB and the result was Bett Ohio. The owners thought that the sire was the QH and subsequently filed the appropriate reports and registered the offspring as an appendix QH.
Herbie (Bett Ohio) was shown extensively and racked up major wins. Someone cried foul and he was tested. By this time he had produced several foals and in order to not disenfranchise a bunch of mare and foal owners, he was recognized as special breeding stallion and his offspring were able to keep their numbers.
Of course the general consensus is that the whole fiasco was accidentally on purpose when the foal owners first saw Herbie when he was born.
This is not the only case of fudging parentage of course. Before DNA testing, there were many breeders who would stand several stallions. As the older, more profitable studs lost fertility, they would breed to their younger, less proven studs and charge the higher stud fee.
The leveling factor with the 3/4 - 7/8 TB “Quarter Horses” is that, if they are shown, they have to ACT like a quarter horse to win anything. The QH judges are all about consistency and manners.
Can a QH expert explain something to me? (I own a few but know next to nothing about breeding or AQHA breed shows). Appendix horses can obviously be shown AQHA to achieve their ROM, right? What is the advantage to getting full QH papers? Just for breeding purposes? So this really just applies to mares or studs right? If this is correct, this seems like a way to get a registered Appendix that is far more than 7/8 TB (assuming both parents are 7/8 TB with ROM)?
No expert but there is not much advantage for the geldings unless they do well in their Junior (horse) classes at AQHA shows…used to have to earn that ROM to advance before they hit…oh…was/is it still 5 or so? used to not be able to show an Appendix after that age unless it advanced. No idea what they do now.
But if that gelding is a little off type for the breed shows and does better Open? There would be no advantage to pushing for that ROM. Fact alot of these go along without their papers and no breeding info is passed along as they go from owner to owner. Leading me to suspect there are alot of them out there.
And somebody mentioned Impressive being a maternal great grandson of Three Bars…? IIRC his sire Lucky Bars TB was also a Three Bars product and the close up linebreeding is implicated in HYPP getting a stonghold thru Impressive.
