I had someone tell me that I should work on an immediate release (allowing her to walk or stop) when she lowers her head. The problem with this is that I am not pushing her. She trots with no encouragement once she starts up. Does anyone have suggestions for encouraging her to lower her head and move more correctly without “gadgets”?
This was exactly my first thought too. I don’t feel like it’s fair to judge a horse’s way of going from (a) still “moment in time” shots, (b) in too-deep footing, and © going in little circles in the too-deep footing.
Pictures can be so deceiving. Snap at the wrong time and the horse looks terrible. Two strides later, perfection. Video is the only way to really judge a horse’s soundness and way of going.
She’s a pretty girl! 
My suggestion is to stop worrying about her head. When did she come off the track?
Personally, I like to take things really slow. My gelding I got off the track August 12. He rested until February 13. Last year I worked him regularly and it wasn’t until late summer I started asking him to come more round and onto the bit. Horses off the track have to learn a lot of new things. Balance, rhythm, relaxation, etc. If I were in your shoes I would concentrate on her rhythm and relaxation. Once that comes the neck will relax and the natural head carriage will show. This could take weeks, be patient. If she zooms off…let her blow off some steam. Bring her back to walk and start again.
[QUOTE=Jealoushe;8092950]
My suggestion is to stop worrying about her head. When did she come off the track? [/QUOTE]
She came off in September 2014. I’m not so much worrying about her head as her hollow back, because I don’t want to ride her like that and hurt her. You’re saying “balance, rhythm, relaxation”, but I don’t know how to encourage that on a lunge line.
I haven’t seen your video, but as a general rule I would mix lungeing with side reins and riding. I would not lunge anywhere near daily as I think it can be very hard on their legs. I don’t think riding is going to hurt her if you start slow and build correctly.
That’s not a chambon, that’s a neck stretcher (silly name since it serves to compress the neck!). A chambon is made of leather and rope, no elastic, and it runs up over the poll to lower the head without restricting the nose. There’s also the de gogue, which looks like a chambon but clips to itself again, drawing the nose in.
Chambon: http://www.tds-saddlers.com/ProductImages/33926.JPG
De gogue: http://www.saoirsesaddlery.ie/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/4154-De-Gogue.jpg
Neck stretcher: http://www.onlinesaddleryaustralia.com.au/product_images/l/564/elastic%20nstr__08015_zoom.jpg
An actual chambon may be helpful, it would encourage your horse to lower her head without restricting the nose. If her natural posture is pretty inverted, she’s likely not strong enough to hold the posture that your current device is drawing her into (which is why you’re losing the hind end).
And yes, the Internet is the land of unsolicited advice. Mine included :lol:
Pretty sure that’s a “neck-stretcher”, not a chambon.
The chambon attaches from the girth to a crown piece then to the bit, allowing the horse to stretch out/forward/down instead of curling or getting BTV like they can with a neck-stretcher.
ETA looks like heronponie posted while I was typing up my response. 
Yep - Not a chambon, and my first thought was I would MUCH rather see this horse is a chambon.
A Chambon WILL GIVE IMMEDIATE RELEASE when adjusted properly. Horse raises and hollows? Chambon has tension - horse lowers? Chambon releases.
Its great because they can learn to really stretch down and out with a chambon.
OP - try to get your hands on one, I think you would be happy with the results. Its the only “training aid” I will lunge with.
Whoops. I’m dumb. Forgot that those two things were not the same thing. Trainer did actually suggest a chambon, not a neck-stretcher. Barn friend handed me a neck-stretcher and said go.
Well, I have just ordered an actual chambon and hopefully it will be useful.
Agree, not a chambon. (Have a chambon de gogue which a BO said was necessary. Uh no, horse did not need it at all.)
[QUOTE=dontskipthecafe;8092984]
She came off in September 2014. I’m not so much worrying about her head as her hollow back, because I don’t want to ride her like that and hurt her. You’re saying “balance, rhythm, relaxation”, but I don’t know how to encourage that on a lunge line.[/QUOTE]
You might not be able to encourage it on the longe line. Getting on her and riding her in big open spaces (with better footing) and using the combo of your seat, leg, and hands to encourage her to lift her back and relax might prove much more beneficial than trussing her up in a gizmo and sending her around in little circles in deep footing. Sometimes the things we think will work don’t and the things we think will never work actually do. shrug
ok maybe that’s why it looked so tight! Didn’t think it looked right. I prefer the degogue personally. I agree with RNC - under saddle work might be better to help her relax and work on rhythm. Even just at the walk.
I do not understand the suggestion that I acquire better footing. This is where I board, I don’t really have other options? This footing will likely improve when the weather dries out (I say, as it starts to pour again -_-). The indoor ring is also a bit deep, but much less heavy, so I’ll be working mostly in there.
IMHO the footing doesn’t look that deep… it just looks wet and freshly disturbed - I think the shadows are making it look deeper than it is. Wouldn’t bother me.
ETA:
look at the three hooves in the ground: http://i.imgur.com/XW3nQYg.jpg
not deep at all…
Agree, it looks like wonderful footing that is damp.
I also agree to just get on and ride her. Big loopy patterns will force some self-balancing, repetition will help her relax. Until she relaxes, you cannot do anything about her posture. Once she relaxes, her head and neck will come down to a level-ish position, and it’s at that point you can start to really influence the hind end.
Whatever you to do force or “encourage” the head to come down via gadgets will often not do it in a relax manner, and she’ll just hold it there with unwanted tension.
I would also get a good massage therapist to work on her. If she’s muscled under her neck, she probably has knots there that need to be really, really loosened up.
Short work sessions that focus on very correct, even if that means you walk for 20 minutes and you’re done, will get you a lot farther than longer rides with many of those minutes going around incorrectly.
Is there a good Dressage trainer around who has a history of correctly re-training horses with incorrect muscling?
[QUOTE=dontskipthecafe;8092984]
She came off in September 2014. I’m not so much worrying about her head as her hollow back, because I don’t want to ride her like that and hurt her. You’re saying “balance, rhythm, relaxation”, but I don’t know how to encourage that on a lunge line.[/QUOTE]
I’m with you on the back issue. My OTTB could not be encouraged/induced/invited to abandon his inverted, high-headed, tense-backed posture and relax under saddle or the lunge for many weeks. I could not stomach continuing to work him like that and “wait” - I felt like I was systematically wrecking his back. Side reins were counter-productive. Either they had no effect (if too long) or if shortened a bit, he would brace UPWARD against them and rush (!).
I didn’t tell anyone or talk about it, but quietly got a chambon (a true chambon, not neck stretcher, etc), made sure he was ok wearing it and knew to give to poll pressure, then lunged him with it about 5 times - no cantering, only walk / trot. First time loosely adjusted, then adjusted just so it would come into play if his poll was higher than withers. I did not actually lunge him very long each time - at a walk until he understood it - then trot maybe 3 minutes each way, increasing by a minute or so the next few times (so he doesn’t get too sore using muscles in a new way). It wasn’t about “working him” in it - but about getting him to understand.
And that was it. About 5 times and I don’t need it or use it anymore. It was like he first needed to get the idea of lowering his head, then needed encouragement to push from behind, then he just sort of “got it.” It helped show him a different way of moving, and now whether under saddle or lunging, he will stretch out and use himself and is starting to swing along and under himself nicely and I am so relieved.
So for me, rather than a regular training tool (as some people use side reins - every time they lunge ) it was a temporary tool to help my horse understand something and show him a new way to move, which he now offers without needed a “gadget.” As a bonus, if you’re a fan of the French method of lifting the hands to encourage horse to stretch down, the chambon works in a similar manner - it raises the bit up in the corner of the mouth (not down or back against the bars) then releases once the horses lowers his head.
But just keep in mind that even if you get your horse moving correctly, it is new and different to them, and you have to build up to it or they will be sore from using new muscles.
[QUOTE=SheckyG;8093458]
I didn’t tell anyone or talk about it, but quietly got a chambon (a true chambon, not neck stretcher, etc), made sure he was ok wearing it and knew to give to poll pressure, then lunged him with it about 5 times - no cantering, only walk / trot. First time loosely adjusted, then adjusted just so it would come into play if his poll was higher than withers. I did not actually lunge him very long each time - at a walk until he understood it - then trot maybe 3 minutes each way, increasing by a minute or so the next few times (so he doesn’t get too sore using muscles in a new way). It wasn’t about “working him” in it - but about getting him to understand.
And that was it. About 5 times and I don’t need it or use it anymore. It was like he first needed to get the idea of lowering his head, then needed encouragement to push from behind, then he just sort of “got it.” It helped show him a different way of moving, and now whether under saddle or lunging, he will stretch out and use himself and is starting to swing along and under himself nicely and I am so relieved.[/QUOTE]
Thank you for sharing this experience! It’s good to know that it was helpful for your horse without needing to be long-term. That was never my plan. This was actually only the second time I’ve put a neck-stretcher on this horse, and I never intended for it to be a forever fix.
[QUOTE=dontskipthecafe;8093502]
Thank you for sharing this experience! It’s good to know that it was helpful for your horse without needing to be long-term. That was never my plan. This was actually only the second time I’ve put a neck-stretcher on this horse, and I never intended for it to be a forever fix.[/QUOTE]
This article was super helpful for me (I did a lot of reading before using the chambon): http://sustainabledressage.net/tack/gadgets.php
It explains the difference between several devices which seem similar but are very different in their action. The end has a nice long section on the chambon. Good luck. I agree with others that although it is hard to tell with still pics, I don’t see anything that screams SI joint. I do see a really appealing horse who is lucky to have you as you’re clearly concerned about doing the best thing as far as training and bringing her along.
Yes she can be taught to go round and balanced with rhythm and relaxation on the lunge.
Side reins are the only ones that are not put in with gadgets.
It is not side reins that hurt horses, it is trainers who don’t use side reins correctly that hurt and kill horses. You neec to be taught.
Chambons are good for teaching a horse to round and come down, but just because a horse looks round in front and ‘swinging’ does not mean they are working.
My mare would come lovely and round in a chambon and not work.
Yes side reins are put on loose. Yes it takes time. It doesn’t happen in the first session.
You are not watching the horses head as much as you are watching to see if they are tracking up.
Never walk with the side reins on. You will ruin the wslk. Warm up without them and yes use them daily. Not just once or twice.
The horse that we had that went around parrallel to the sky and had at least 2’ in between her back and front legs as she didn’t track up at all, with time she actually left a track with the hind hoof imprint touching the front hoof imprint last week. It might have only been by a mm, but that was so exciting for me.
Lunge in side reins and then remove and ride or don’t lunge and ride.
Running them around on a rope is not lunging. JMHO.
I know horses that will LEAN or curl all day long in side reins. Really depends on the horse. I see too much of THIS with side reins.
http://www.sustainabledressage.net/tack/gadgets.php
From sustainable dressage:
[I]Out of all of them, the chambon is the only one which really works satisfactorily in its true context - lungeing. The chambon is the only device that lets the horse stretch fully forward-down-OUT.
Sidereins are as inanimate a gadget as anything else, and does not improve the stretching forward-down-out but rather teaches the horse to keep the shape of the neck and jowl and drop from the withers. This is NO STRETCH![/I]
