Why do European BNRs jump with long stirrups?

[Lusoluv]

Hey all,

As a returning adult jumper, I’m still trying to find my comfort zone stirrup length-wise. I tend to like a slightly longish stirrup, tho my trainer and old masters Michael Page, George, et al, talk about having a 90 degree bend behind the knee to set one’s stirrup length schooling fences.

I’ve been watching a lot of videos lately (Hamburg Derby, indoor European Champ’ships, etc.) where GP riders have a very long stirrup. I’d guess at least 110 - 120+ degree bend behind knee while seated and they are jumping BIG fences! In the Derby’s case they include steep bank jumps, wide water, wide log oxers as well as typical SJ fences. And the majority of those riders do the long stirrups, not just a couple. Then you look at an American SJ and they look like a jockey in comparison.

Is this just a preference from one culture vs. another? Is there a functional reason? Euro riders also seem to spend most of their time between fences in a full seat vs. 2-point. Just trying to learn more about this discipline now than I did in my youth!

[cherham]

I noticed that trend about 20 years ago actually. I love the longer legs on a rider…they just tend to look more elegant on a horse then all perched up on a saddle with “jockey” legs.

I suspect a lot of the European riders have done a fair bit of dressage/flat work as well…beginning as a child. Then as they begin to jump they feel more comfortable with a deeper seat and longer leg position. I remember a Dutch rider from a long time ago who legs almost looked in a full dressage rider position and his reins were actually looped going to huge GP fences. That pair were unbelievable.

Muscle memory at this stage in your riding will dictate where you are more comfortable and where your centre of balance will be over the fence. Just go with what you feel is right for you.

[Willesdon]

I think it is a culture thing. To my European eyes the American forward seat has lost the tremendous elegance and flexibility evident in riders from the 1960s. Now it looks very forced and, basically, uncomfortable for most riders, with heels fixed down above a rigid leg that makes sitting into a deep seat difficult. Also the habit of flinging oneself up the horses neck to look as if a huge effort is made when going over a 3 foot fence is, to my eyes, another odd habit. I suspect it is a case of teaching form “90 degree bend at the knee” over function “ride the horse as an individual and maintain balance” according to skills established on the flat before even starting to jump.

Go where you are comfortable. Find the difference between dressage length and jumping length that allows you to remain in a comfortable balance all the time. Personally, I take my stirrups up 4 or 5 holes to jump after flat work, using a GP saddle. Jumping too long makes it far harder to balance over a jump but you still need to be able to use your seat between fences.

[merrygoround]

I suspect that European riders consider the flat work portion of the course more important than the over the fences part. It is easier to precisely contol your horse’s bend, impulsion and pace from a full seat. With that all lined up properly the jump takes care of itself.

[M_O_Connor]

I think they are riding shorter than they used to, as a group…riding far more smoothly than a generation ago, as “good” riding style has become nearly universal at the highest level of the sport.

There has been an incredible “exchange of culture” at the upper levels, with so many international riders active here in the USA and so many American riders in Europe (I think it’s pretty much a given that many young American riders go to Europe to work for a time, and many young foreigners coming over here, so there’s another level of exchange going on at lower levels, too). At the highest levels, coaching and riding “across borders” is now a common trend with a mix of accents and languages evident in almost every barn aisle and schooling area.

I’ll keep an eye on stirrup lengths next week, as I’ll be seeing them up close at the World Cup.

I would be interested to know which riders in particular the OP thinks are riding long.

[Lusoluv]

Glad to know I’m in good company noticing this difference As a jumper - dressage - now dabbling jumper rider again, I like to know the reason behind why we do what we do. I know Europeans spend a lot more time schooling their young riders and horses in dressage basics than we tend to here, so makes sense they would gravitate to a longer stirrup length as suggested above.

Here are 2 random finds where I think stirrups are long:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tz1jd3kMn5g

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=619125628155689&pnref=story

[lando]

They definitely do ride with them longer. When I was riding there they dropped them about 3-4 holes down, it definitely took me some getting used to, especially when you are used to hiking them up! But once I got the hang of it/found the appropriate length I loved it, I felt more secure/stable in the saddle approaching bigger jumps. When I came back my trainers had a heck of a time getting me to shorten my stirrups!

[merrygoround]

[QUOTE=M. O’Connor;

I’ll keep an eye on stirrup lengths next week, as I’ll be seeing them up close at the World Cup.

I would be interested to know which riders in particular the OP thinks are riding long.[/QUOTE]

We’ll await a millimeter by millimeter report.

[merrygoround]

[QUOTE=M. O’Connor;

I’ll keep an eye on stirrup lengths next week, as I’ll be seeing them up close at the World Cup.

I would be interested to know which riders in particular the OP thinks are riding long.[/QUOTE]

We’ll await a millimeter by millimeter report.

[foursocks]

I ride with mine at least 3 or 4 longer for flatwork on my young one. My trainer is very dressage-focused, and trains in a more German or Dutch way than American, but he has me jack up my stirrups because otherwise I pinch with my knee and get unbalanced over big jumps. If I was a better rider I think I could pull off longer stirrups! :lol:

[DMK]

Well, duh… when you start your GP trip off with the Kalinka, of course you need a longer stirrup!

[oldbutnotdead]

I don’t get the Kalinka reference . . .

[OnDeck]

The European style includes a deeper seat and often an automatic release and sitting up a touch earlier over the fences. A longer stirrup is conducive to all of these things. The American forward seat is much more out of the tack, which requires a shorter stirrup. Both styles have proven very effective, but are very different

[Wonders12]

Similar to OnDeck.

I think longer stirrups can be done well if you have a great eye and are physically strong in the tack. European riding overall is much “stronger” IMO.

The American forward seat is all about freeing up your horse’s back. And, I feel, the more dramatic angles help lock you into the tack using physics instead of muscle, and the extra room between your seat and the saddle (when you need it) is more forgiving to misses or silly behavior.

I came back from a hiatus loving my longer stirrups. And it worked ok for me. Then I got a younger horse who is less forgiving. For 2ish months my trainer was moving my stirrups up every 2 weeks or so. At first, I hated it. Now I feel much more secure. I can sink down into my heels more easily allowing me to stay centered and with her. If she gets bucky, I can kind of float above her without having to stick every little movement. And when she clears a crossrail by 4’ (her personal favorite), even if I go a bit airborne, I’m able to land back in my stirrups without landing on her back on the backside of the jump.

YMMV. Every horse and rider have a different sweet spot, but I would encourage giving the (reasonably) shorter stirrups a try. It will take 2-4 weeks of consistent riding to not just feel awkward though.

[Lusoluv]

I’ve resumed jumping lessons since the Fall and haven’t been able to get comfortable in typical jumper length stirrups. I’ve tried for the past 6 months and sometimes my guy way over jumps, other times he’s “greened up” as he’s new to jumping. My trainer isn’t pushing me to do short stirrups, but when I asked her about it, the length she put my leathers at felt too short.

I know I need to get off my horse’s back so I don’t interfere, but I find if I clear his back by 2" instead of 6", I tend to stay more stable. The farther I’m away from his back, the more tippy or loose I get.

Today I rode with my stirrups 1" longer - didn’t say anything to my trainer. We had the best jump school yet! We always over jump or “slow popover” the first fence of the lesson. Not today! We floated across and landed in a nice canter. Every fence went this way including the 1 stride and the scary 2’ 3" oxer.

We were both smiling about my horse’s breakthrough and that he’s really getting it. But I think when I had too short a stirrup I was getting too tall/upright and that made him do the same. My base felt closer today and we stayed together much better. Woohoooo!!!

[Hawks_Nest]

in my experience longer stirrups requires more strength to stay balanced and out of the horse’s way.

Personally I hate jumping with a longer stirrup as I can’t stay with my boy over fences but I had a habit of riding my mother’s horse with my stirrups longer as he was a lot easier to stay with. My boy is smaller and has a rounder/harder jump so if my stirrups aren’t jacked up I am more prone to catching him in the mouth and/or hitting the cantle of the saddle on landing.

[applelover]

Why don’t more American riders do their rounds with Gagnam Style blasting in the background??

[Mardi]

[QUOTE=Willesdon;8096224]
I think it is a culture thing. To my European eyes the American forward seat has lost the tremendous elegance and flexibility evident in riders from the 1960s. Now it looks very forced and, basically, uncomfortable for most riders, with heels fixed down above a rigid leg that makes sitting into a deep seat difficult. Also the habit of flinging oneself up the horses neck to look as if a huge effort is made when going over a 3 foot fence is, to my eyes, another odd habit. [/QUOTE]

I agree. The Euro riders seem to ride so much more quietly - body and hands.
They rarely distract the watcher’s eye from the horse.

Here’s a nice example…a few jumps, some dressage work , and then a few more jumps. The rider hardly moves. https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=609997435767773

btw recently there was a Facebook video from Germany of a very young rider jumping a large pinto pony. The video was taken at home and showed them cantering over a line of smaller jumps, and then bing ! a large oxer.

You could see after only the first jump that this child rider (maybe 9 yrs old) had already been taught (and had achieved) a secure seat and legs, and quiet hands. It was beautiful riding.

[equisusan]

I’m just an amateur and I’m sure I’d be an older if they didn’t keep changing the definition to follow along with baby boomers aging. Lol I’ve always ridden with a longer stirrup but I’m also a hunter rider and ride in two point mostly. Its my comfort level. Gives me the most length of leg to hug my horse and gently close my leg when needed. I don’t ride slow slug type horses that you have to kick at. I prefer a sensitive horse that carries their canter. I’m definitely not a European style rider IMO.