Why do farms require outside trainer insurance?

[Lady_Eboshi]

[QUOTE=Princess Sparkles;7953402]
I run a boarding barn. We are insured for boarding and lessons (our own instructor on site). It is a REQUIREMENT of my boarding insurance that ALL outside coaches/trainers carry their own insurance. Period. It would void my insurance in the case of an accident if it was discovered that an uninsured third party was giving lessons at my place.

This is a completely logical requirement for an insurance company. Most people don’t realize that in situations where there are accidents and people sue, it is ALMOST ALWAYS insurance companies duking it out with each other, not individuals. (At least in Canada, speaking from a Canadian lawyer’s perspective here). One person’s insurance is suing the other’s insurance. Tort law is about suing whomever has the deepest pockets, not who may actually be at fault (Tort 101 for you folks!). So yes, if a third party coach is teaching at my farm and their student has an accident and tries to sue me/my farm, my insurance will in turn sue that third party coach’s insurance. If they don’t have insurance, I will be SOL, because my insurance is not going to want to foot that bill.

Had one coach show up to teach a couple of my boarders. Asked for proof of insurance and she showed me her OEF card (for non-Canadians/Ontarians, this is general rider/horse owner liability insurance). I said, sorry honey, that is not coaching insurance, no way no how. She’s been teaching for a YEAR at farms all over the place without proper insurance and no one had caught on to her before this. She claimed she didn’t know that was not proper insurance.

Maybe its because I’m a lawyer, but I’d rather shell out the money and KNOW I’m covered than risk paying a lawsuit out of pocket (especially since there is a deductible on your insurance that is not low!!!). Mind is blown by third party coaches who don’t protect themselves, and barns that allow them to teach without proof of insurance![/QUOTE]

THANK YOU^! This is identical in the USA as well. No certificate, no lesson, it’s as simple as that. And sign the hold-harmless release for good measure. It’s also a good idea for BO’s to check on a “trainer” or “teacher’s” reputation and credentials before allowing them access to your place. My contract reads, “outside trainers with Certificate of Additional Insured allowed SUBJECT TO MY APPROVAL.”

BTW, “homeowner” insurance almost NEVER covers any type of activity whatsoever for which you are accepting money. That puts you in the category of needing “farm liability” (commercial) insurance, even if you’re boarding only one horse. I don’t understand why people resist this so hard as it’s relatively inexpensive and will SAVE YOUR PLACE if someone has a wreck!

[Flash44]

[QUOTE=KayBee;7953041]
A question not relevant to me, but just wondering…

Say you own a private home and allow people on property to either

• ride their own horse
• ride your horse
• board

Do insurance companies that provide homeowners insurance typically have policies for that available? Or are their insurance companies that specialize?

And in any of these cases, are the non-residents required to have a policy?[/QUOTE]

Most homeowners policies EXCLUDE business related activities, or may cover a token amount if you have a smallish home based business, ie. $2500 coverage and you sell Mary Kay. The problems with homeowners policies is that the coverage is very low for accidental injury, ie $2500. If someone files a claim against you, your policy may kick in for that $2500 but if the medical bills are higher, then you are potentially personally liable for the rest. And homeowners policies cover your personal property up to a limit.

Coverage here http://www.iii.org/article/what-covered-standard-homeowners-policy

Exclusions http://insurance.about.com/od/home/a/Homeowners-Insurance-Exclusions-Discussed.htm

Homeowners insurance is for the traditional homeowner with no bells and whistles. If you have art, antiques, a business, expensive jewelry, a yacht you store in your garage, you need to get additional coverage for those things. You need general liability/E&O for a business.

[Janet]

[QUOTE=KayBee;7953041]
A question not relevant to me, but just wondering…

Say you own a private home and allow people on property to either

• ride their own horse
• ride your horse
• board

Do insurance companies that provide homeowners insurance typically have policies for that available? Or are their insurance companies that specialize?

And in any of these cases, are the non-residents required to have a policy?[/QUOTE]

I don’t think that homeowners policies will cover it, but most FARM policies cover “care, custody, and control” coverage, which cover’s boarders and (I think) non-paying visitors.

I have to fill out a questionare for my farm insurance every year, and it always asks whether other people ride on my land.

[Janet]

[QUOTE=Lady Eboshi;7953318]
And it’s not very expensive. [/QUOTE]
Depends on where you are.

My sister found the VA insurance “not very expensive”.

But when she spent 6 months in New York (primarily looking after our ailing father) she looked into teaching a few lessons while she was there. The New York insurance would have been MANY TIMES what she was payng in VA. And more that she would have made teaching a “few lessons”.

So she did not teach any lessons in NY.

[merrygoround]

Also, insurance is expensive. A highly qualified instructor with many years experience but with insurance that didn’t cover them at “outside facilities” was going to work where I keep my horse. The BO’s insurance would have covered it, at astronomical expense. Oh Well. It was a great idea.

As far as others keeping horses on your property, etc. There is Care, Custody and Control insurance. Homeowners won’t cover it.

[IronwoodFarm]

As others said, you can’t mix a personal form (Homeowners) with a commercial form (Care, Custody and Control). You have to have separate coverages for a business you are running on your property. It can be a Farm Policy or a Commercial General Liability policy modified for your business.

I know that everyone complains about insurance premium, but if you have to pay a lawyer for a few hours of his/her time, you will easily exceed the premium. Even making a nuisance claim go away takes time and effort from a lawyer.

[Lady_Eboshi]

“Care, Custody & Control” insurance protects you against being sued by OWNERS for loss of the value of the HORSES you board; under circumstances like fire, getting loose, other accident. Owners should also carry equine mortality/major medical insurance on any horse of considerable value–i.e., one you would take to colic surgery if you had to (provided he’s of an age and demonstrable monetary value to be insurable).

That is NOT to be confused with General or Farm Liability insurance, which covers you against lawsuit in most cases of death or personal injury. That one you NEED; CCC as above is optional and is often not necessary if the horses you are boarding are not high-value. Realistically, no one’s going to sue you for $500.00, because the cost of doing so would be more than they’d ever recoup.
But if the horses you board are worth, say, $50,000.00, yeah, better get it alright.

As an instructor, being insured vs. not insured is the difference between a mature and responsible woman who owns some assets and is making most or all of her living teaching, and a teenager or “moonlighter” picking up a little side money doing the equivalent of dog-walking or babysitting. If you’re serious, you NEED the insurance because the good places won’t let you work there without.

[BeeHoney]

In case this helps to clarify the issue, whenever you hire any professional–a lawyer, a vet, a plumber, an electrician–you would expect for them to carry their own professional insurance. I will not allow any kind of contractor (or equine professional) on my business premises (or home) that does not carry their own professional insurance (and you probably wouldn’t hire an uninsured contractor to work for you either).

I have plenty of my own insurance for my own business activities. But my business insurance does NOT cover other people’s professional activities. That is why I expect those professionals to carry their own insurance–to make sure that any accident or problem they cause does not cause me additional liability.

I completely agree that any professional instructor worth their salt should have a proper instructors’ insurance policy in place. But, there are many instructors out there that don’t, or that misrepresent exactly what insurance coverage they have. For example, if an instructor owns their own farm and has a commercial policy covering that, their policy may not cover them if they go out and train on someone else’s farm. It is important for a BO to actually check and require a certificate from the trainer’s insurance company.

[2LaZ2race]

[QUOTE=PeteyPie;7952735]
You sound disgusted that the barn might sue the trainer in that situation, but an insurance company, or if it came to that, a judge, might wonder why a trainer would be having you ride a horse on bad footing. .[/QUOTE]

Nope, not disgusted with my boarding barn at all! I find it sad that people are so “sue happy” but that’s the country I live in. I carry insurance on all my horses, my little amish shedrow barn, my tack, everything… I just wasn’t sure what the full story was.

My trainer has insurance, no issue there. I do think people “rent” the indoor and sneak lessons without the BO really knowing though. They sign the rental agreement and just say a group of them is riding, but one person is really instructing.

I personally don’t find the premium “inexpensive”, most quotes I’ve seen on line were over $700, but obviously worth it if you give lessons (I don’t).

[FlightCheck]

A responsible instructor will carry insurance.

[CHT]

My commercial insurance will cover an “in house” trainer if they don’t teach anywhere else, once they do they have to have their own insurance. I am not sure why it makes a difference if they teach at other places vs only here.

[poltroon]

As mentioned earlier, more often than not, it’s insurance companies suing other insurance companies. So that rider who fell off - your biggest risk isn’t that she will sue, or her parents will sue; it’s that her health insurance company will sue, and they can do so even if she doesn’t want them to. When you accept health insurance, that’s right in the paperwork you sign.

[SportingSun]

It’s useful for barns that don’t offer an in house trainer. Outside trainers can come in with their own insurance without any increase to the BO. At least that’s how my insurance works.

[Flash44]

“As mentioned earlier, more often than not, it’s insurance companies suing other insurance companies. So that rider who fell off - your biggest risk isn’t that she will sue, or her parents will sue; it’s that her health insurance company will sue, and they can do so even if she doesn’t want them to. When you accept health insurance, that’s right in the paperwork you sign.”

Slightly off base. The injured party will file a claim with an insurance carrier. If the carrier denies the claim, the injured party can then file a lawsuit, naming the policy holder (barn owner, trainer, etc) and the insurance company.

The insurance carrier may think that a different policy shoulder cover the claim, and they will either implead the other carrier into the case, or subrogate against the other carrier. For example, someone falls off in a lesson and files a claim against the barn owner’s policy. The barn owner’s insurance carrier thinks that the trainer’s policy should cover it, and they deny the claim and implead the trainer’s policy into the suit.

Subrogation happens when two different policies legally cover the same accident. One policy is usually primary, and that policy will pay out according to the claim. If the injured party then attempts to recover from the second policy, the first policy can step in and take what it spent from the second policy payout. It can get complicated, this is a much simplified explanation.