Why do other diciplines slam the H/J world so much?

[La_Gringa]

I personally am getting sick of it. I came up through the H/J/Equitation ranks, and I learned what it was to be a horseman…

The stereotype of the H/J world is unfair. There are plenty of good honest horse people in the H/J realm. There are also plenty of good riders that come up the ranks, who didn’t necessarily have daddy paying the way with fancy horses…

I live amongst a lot of eventers in my area that have nothing good to say about H/J people. I am a H/J person, and I am PROUD of it! I loved the equitation stuff I did as a jr, and the jumpers I did in South America, and even though EVENTING isn’t for me, I don’t go slamming people because it’s not my sport…

I am ranting here… but I think justifiably. I am just sick of it.

[Ravencrest_Camp]

As long as there are threads on here about what colour show shirt, jacket, breeches, ect is IN this year you are going to get that kind of stuff.

[Schune]

Totally feel for you.

I have a second cousin (or some # of cousin) who is of the “Eventers are the only riders who actually have SKILL” mentality, and she tortured me at my grad party by following me around and poking fun of the H/J world.

Now I’m scheduled (i.e. FORCED) to attend her grad party this May. She mentions a WORD about the H/J in a derogative manner, and my reply shall be thus: “Well, at least my horse hasn’t collapsed dead on a hunter course. Fruit punch?”

[Equibrit]

Aaaaaaah - poor little princess!

Why don’t you just - like - you know - go shopping?

[veebug22]

I agree with you – I find it frustrating when other disciplines knock h/j people as being hot-house riders on babysitter horses, that our world revolves around competition, that we sell the horse as soon as things aren’t going well, that we’re funded by daddy’s money, etc. There are plenty of us that can handle a difficult, misbehaving horse, that have “made” our own horses, that are in it for the relationship we have with our horse (not the ribbons), and work damn hard just to pay the bills. That said, there’s an element of truth to all of the stereotypes, and I think it’s our fault.

In the h/j world we are SO specialized. Few of us have ventured into dressage or eventing or foxhunting. I think almost every single h/j trainer I’ve ever worked with vocally shunned my exploration of other disciplines and the people within them. And yet an in-depth conversation would reveal that they knew very little about these other disciplines. But most dressage people I know have done some h/j or eventing. And eventers obviously have skills in jumping, dressage, etc. Heck, even most Western riders I know have done some dressage or h/j. How many h/j riders have done Western? There are definitely lots of accomplished riders in the h/j world, but unfortunately many of the accomplished h/j riders I know are not well-rounded. I think it’s up to us to improve our reputation as capable riders. Part of that education should be participating in other disciplines. Not just to improve as riders, but to gain some respect for and from these other groups.

[eventmom]

[QUOTE=La Gringa;3097422]
I personally am getting sick of it. I came up through the H/J/Equitation ranks, and I learned what it was to be a horseman…

The stereotype of the H/J world is unfair. There are plenty of good honest horse people in the H/J realm. There are also plenty of good riders that come up the ranks, who didn’t necessarily have daddy paying the way with fancy horses…

I live amongst a lot of eventers in my area that have nothing good to say about H/J people. I am a H/J person, and I am PROUD of it! I loved the equitation stuff I did as a jr, and the jumpers I did in South America, and even though EVENTING isn’t for me, I don’t go slamming people because it’s not my sport…

I am ranting here… but I think justifiably. I am just sick of it.

;)[/QUOTE]

I’d suggest that the answer to your question might also be found within the posts on the thread about “calming a hunter”:eek::eek:

[TheOrangeOne]

They haven’t done it. I used to event and bashed on the hunters and their worthless standing martingales until circumstances forced me into it. I decided I’d start jumpers and cross country again when I could get around a 3’ hunter course. Guess what I am still up to?

[seeuatx]

@Schune;3097435

Now I’m scheduled (i.e. FORCED) to attend her grad party this May. She mentions a WORD about the H/J in a derogative manner, and my reply shall be thus: “Well, at least my horse hasn’t collapsed dead on a hunter course. Fruit punch?”

Hmmm, real mature :rolleyes: (for the record, the first time I saw an accident it was at a small hunter show where the horse had an aneurysm and died in mid-air over a 2’6 fence).

As someone who has competed in 4 disciplines (dressage, eventing, some hunters, some western) and dabbled in others… maybe horse people just need to live and let live. I have met “DQ’s”, “Hunter Princesses” (of both the A show and AQHA variety), “Crazy Eventers”, “Crazy Barrel racers”, and “Western Pleasure Princesses”… but the reality is that in every discipline 1% may fall into that stereotype, while the other 99% is “normal”.

Any time I find myself bearing the brunt of some jerk’s stereotypes, I just reply with a don’t knock it till you try it. For hunters, you could always add something along the lines of “when you can put in 2 rounds with 8 perfect fences, 4 perfect lines, and perfect changes…then we can talk”

[ef80]

One of the major issues I see, is that in the last 20 years, Hunters and Equitation have strayed so far from FUNCTIONAL horses and riders to this hyper-stylized, non-functional, lay-on-the-neck nonsense that we deserve it.

The fact of the matter is that the Hunter and Equitation world is highly style driven - moreso than the other sports, where it’s all about performance (making time/individual movements scored/etc). When you make a sport in to little more than bland fashion-shows, it’s worth making fun of.

We are way too quick to pay out the nose for an edge over other competitors. There are countless threads here that say “Oh, you’ll never find a suitable 3’6” horse that’ll win at the AA’s for less than 50k" or “If you want to be competitive, you have to have a WB”. There’s also the attitude that if it’s over 14.2, but under 16.1 it’s just about worthless. and the attitude that the right NUMBER of strides is more important than the CORRECT ride for the horse. We’re too quick to turn to a chemist to get that dead-quiet ride, too quick to blame our losses on not having the “in” jacket this year.

Our part of the horse world has absolutely positively lost it’s way and is in need of some serious introspection. Our laying-on-the-neck hyper-stylized garbage that passes for ‘good riding’ these days is the same thing as that awful peanut-rolling that goes on in the Western Pleasure rings - we say we hate it, we know it’s stupid, but let judges keep rewarding it day in and day out.

All of that said, we take far ourselves too seriously. If we can’t laugh at ourselves, someone else has to do it for us. Lighten up. It could be worse - you could be trussed up in some top-grade AQHA BLING with enough make-up and fake tan to make those pagent kids embarassed for you.

[Dixon]

Well said, ef80! And Ravencrest, too.

[Viva]

I’m not a h/j, but since you ask…first of all, I second eventmom’s comment–that thread made me relieved I’m anything but a h/j.
Second, it’s frankly quite scary to me to see photos of winning hunter riders in the Chronicle with their bodies flung up the neck, lower leg swung back and crotch over the pommel. It’s the antithesis of safe, effective riding, regardless of what discipline you’re in.

[hedmbl]

[QUOTE=ef80;3097547]
One of the major issues I see, is that in the last 20 years, Hunters and Equitation have strayed so far from FUNCTIONAL horses and riders to this hyper-stylized, non-functional, lay-on-the-neck nonsense that we deserve it.

The fact of the matter is that the Hunter and Equitation world is highly style driven - moreso than the other sports, where it’s all about performance (making time/individual movements scored/etc). When you make a sport in to little more than bland fashion-shows, it’s worth making fun of.

We are way too quick to pay out the nose for an edge over other competitors. There are countless threads here that say “Oh, you’ll never find a suitable 3’6” horse that’ll win at the AA’s for less than 50k" or “If you want to be competitive, you have to have a WB”. There’s also the attitude that if it’s over 14.2, but under 16.1 it’s just about worthless. and the attitude that the right NUMBER of strides is more important than the CORRECT ride for the horse. We’re too quick to turn to a chemist to get that dead-quiet ride, too quick to blame our losses on not having the “in” jacket this year.

Our part of the horse world has absolutely positively lost it’s way and is in need of some serious introspection. Our laying-on-the-neck hyper-stylized garbage that passes for ‘good riding’ these days is the same thing as that awful peanut-rolling that goes on in the Western Pleasure rings - we say we hate it, we know it’s stupid, but let judges keep rewarding it day in and day out.

All of that said, we take far ourselves too seriously. If we can’t laugh at ourselves, someone else has to do it for us. Lighten up. It could be worse - you could be trussed up in some top-grade AQHA BLING with enough make-up and fake tan to make those pagent kids embarassed for you.[/QUOTE]

:yes::yes:

[KC_and_the_Sunshine]

Oh good lord, this thread is

sofa king we todd did

:eek:

that’s right, we’re all a bunch of whiney shamateurs who can’t ride and are most interested in laying on our horse’s neck while figuring out how to count the next 5 strides on the outside line. Yawn.

[Dazednconfused]

If you think the h/j world has cornered the market on being slammed…well, you haven’t done enough other disciplines. I’ve been on this board long enough to determine that if there is a discipline out there, there will be at least one person to slam it. Why…if I hear another person tell me how awful arabian halter horses are, I might just slap them, for example :lol: I never understood slamming other disciplines anyway. What a boring world it would be if we all liked the same things. True horsemen are impressed by the best of any discipline, even if they don’t wish to compete in it themselves. I find Popeye K, Rox Dene, Strapless, et al to be absolutely stunningly beautiful athletes, even though I am in likely the farthest removed discipline from hunters as you can be :yes:

[DancingQueen]

I want to vent too! My computer is a no good for nothing useless piece of [crap] that crashed so many times before it actually started to work again that i forgot what i intended to say. Aaaargh!

#schune
Back home the eventers are the ones getting crapped on.
It’s joked that you do eventing if you are not skilled enough to do dressage and your eye isn’t good enough for stadium jumping.

Before you all give me crap. Please note that I have competed at a national level in all three disciplins and by no means feel that any one is above the others. I am merely giving the poor girl a comeback to her rude cousin.

[NowThatsATrot]

It seems like the H/J crowd in general is much larger – I always see bigger crowds at h/j shows than dressage or eventing – and so there’s a wider range of people competing, as well as watching. (I mean mostly at the local shows, but it can still apply to the rateds as well.)

In my area there are a lot more novices getting their start in hunter and eq classes, because they tend to offer more “beginner friendly” divisions – for juniors, ponies, puddlejumpers, etc. There’s a division for everyone, and thus potential ribbons for everyone. This seems to lend to the impression that ANYONE can do the H/J stuff.

Just observations. I have a healthy respect for the different disciplines and rotate through many of them on a regular basis… My horse prefers dressage and eventing (as do I), but we do some h/j shows for schooling purposes – if we can’t make 8 decent jumps in the controlled environment of a ring, how can I expect him to jump decently XC? I take a lot of green horses into pleasure classes for schooling as well, because these classes are the most readily available.

[Meredith_Clark]

One time I told a girl at the tack store (she was annoyed that we only had 25 different colors of shirts in stock at the time…) I work at that “in eventing there’s a lot of rules about warm up; like you can’t use side reins or have anyone else ride your horse for you”

She seriously looked at me like I just told her the world was flat.

I don’t “slam” or hate hunters or eq people, I just don’t have the mentality. I don’t care if my jacket matches my horse, or if my horse cost more than my car. I really want to believe that there are people in the hunter world that have built themselves from the ground up with nice horses that wern’t shipped over from Europe with daddy’s checkbook but I just don’t see enough of that to justify trying to enter the sport when I feel like i’d be the odd one out and not really have any fun. Eventing is FUN to me… being whispered about because my horse is a OTTB and my boots arn’t Vogels isn’t.

[Foxtrot_s]

I’m actually cracking up here, really. But coming from the further, faster, higher mentality, I have to say that a functional rider on a lovely hunter is, in my mind, the most beautiful of the equestrian events. Their softness, looks, style - lovely. I do hate the fake, propped bum-high riders that are normal now who look like they are about to do a faceplant.

[ef80]

Thought of something I left out-

Part of it may be related to the fundemental differences in how Eventing and Dressage shows work versus how H/J shows work.

In Eventing and Dressage there’s a greater sharing of information between the Judge and the Rider. At the end of the day, it is still “that particular Judges opinion of your ride at that moment in time”, HOWEVER you can look at your score sheet and see what the reasoning behind that 4 on your 20 meter circle at C was. You are scored AS you complete the movement - no time for the judge to forget if that corner was a little sloppy, that your courtesy circle was lovely, or maybe that your lead-swap was late. Everyone gets helpful comments (okay, sometimes they aren’t helpful), from the judges they show under and can track trends in their riding as well as personal progress.

We don’t have anything like that in the H/J world. Sure, we can ask for the judges cards at the show office, but so much of our judging comes down to personal preference. I can remember a thread about a short-stirrup pony in a pelham and the judge who was at the show eventually popping in to the thread and saying that they tend to not place ponies in pelhams due to it being a suitability issue. I’ve personally had a discussion with a judge who was conflicted about placing a really talented kid who put in BEAUTIFUL rounds but was unfortunately wearing a black jacket (sin of sins), and mounted on a very average, $2k good ol’boy and up against $30-50k pony hunters. The kid put down 8 perfect fences, landed on all of her leads, made every line - it looked absolutely effortless. The other kids had chips or late swaps, and the judge pinned them over her - why? Well, because as another poster pointed out when I shared the story, “it’s a horse show” and those $30k ponies are just nicer animals than the 14.1h maybe-a-quarab with the kid in questionable fashion. One of the sad and ultimately mockable realities of the H/J world is that at the end of the day, we do not have a level playing field. In the Hunter and Eq rings, where everything is subjective, the best ride doesn’t always win. One judge will pin the 10 jumper with a late swap over the 7 jumper with a perfect ride and vice versa.

We don’t get feedback from the judges in the same way other English disciplines do - at the end of the day, we can make educated guesses as to what we did to make ourselves more or less competitive, but unless we ask at every show (and are fortunate enough to get judges who write extensive notes) we don’t have a way to track personal progress other than by end-of-the-year points/awards or things we’ve qualified for.

Another related point is that in Dressage and Eventing there is some degree of ‘moving up’ or progressing thru the ranks. You CAN stay at the same level for as long as you’d like, but there’s a system that encourages you to move up once you’ve mastered a certain level. Our Adult riders don’t have a Maclay to chase. Some might say that the H/J world is a Junior’s sport. We continually make new ever-green divisions and tiny-tot fence classes in the name of accessability (or making money, your call) and are content to cruise around the same divisions, jumping the same eight fences, year after year after year. We top out at 3’ or 3’6" and never venture outside of that framework (“this horse is a hunter, we could never go do a jumper class”). Many people simply hang on our trainer’s every word and would have a heart attack if their trainer couldn’t come pop them over some crossrails before jumping the same course they jumped earlier in the morning.

There are a lot of wonderful things in the H/J world - we consistently produce some of the most amazing horses and riders in the world. We have many well developed show circuits that supports all levels of riding - from the backyarders to the top of the sport. We have USEABLE horses in Hunter Breeding, wheras many other organizations have horses that are useless after their Halter career is over. Riding 8 perfect spots and hitting the strides without a noticeable change in pace IS a challenge. Finding the balance between speed and accuracy is HARD. However, if we can’t look at the absurdities in our own discipline, we can’t improve. Looking at the stereotypes at least gives us a notion of what we should strive to avoid being.

[c_expresso]

[QUOTE=ef80;3097547]
One of the major issues I see, is that in the last 20 years, Hunters and Equitation have strayed so far from FUNCTIONAL horses and riders to this hyper-stylized, non-functional, lay-on-the-neck nonsense that we deserve it.

The fact of the matter is that the Hunter and Equitation world is highly style driven - moreso than the other sports, where it’s all about performance (making time/individual movements scored/etc). When you make a sport in to little more than bland fashion-shows, it’s worth making fun of.

We are way too quick to pay out the nose for an edge over other competitors. There are countless threads here that say “Oh, you’ll never find a suitable 3’6” horse that’ll win at the AA’s for less than 50k" or “If you want to be competitive, you have to have a WB”. There’s also the attitude that if it’s over 14.2, but under 16.1 it’s just about worthless. and the attitude that the right NUMBER of strides is more important than the CORRECT ride for the horse. We’re too quick to turn to a chemist to get that dead-quiet ride, too quick to blame our losses on not having the “in” jacket this year.

Our part of the horse world has absolutely positively lost it’s way and is in need of some serious introspection. Our laying-on-the-neck hyper-stylized garbage that passes for ‘good riding’ these days is the same thing as that awful peanut-rolling that goes on in the Western Pleasure rings - we say we hate it, we know it’s stupid, but let judges keep rewarding it day in and day out.

All of that said, we take far ourselves too seriously. If we can’t laugh at ourselves, someone else has to do it for us. Lighten up. It could be worse - you could be trussed up in some top-grade AQHA BLING with enough make-up and fake tan to make those pagent kids embarassed for you.[/QUOTE]

Ditto! I event and do the jumpers, and used to do the hunters, so I get it from all sides! It bothers me too when eventers say no hunter/jumper riders can ride, and eventers are the only REAL riders. But it also bothers me when hunter/jumpers say us eventers kill our horses, and XC is a death wish. Until you’ve done it, don’t diss it! And that goes for BOTH sides.

Now I’m scheduled (i.e. FORCED) to attend her grad party this May. She mentions a WORD about the H/J in a derogative manner, and my reply shall be thus: “Well, at least my horse hasn’t collapsed dead on a hunter course. Fruit punch?”

Wow, if that isn’t the most hypocritical thing I have ever read, I don’t know what is! Do you realize you are insulting her just like she insulted you, and it is just feeding her? Grow up!