Someone stopped drinking the Kool Aid.
http://www.horsenation.com/2014/09/23/opinion-why-i-dont-do-natural-horsemanship-anymore/
You are tugging the tiger’s tail, aren’t you Mike…
“What would Linda Parelli do?” — 'bout sums it all up right there… 
I read the article and I noticed this (my bold):
Horses have been my life since childhood. Living on a 160-acre farm in Nebraska…After high school, however, reality set in and with a family, horses were a luxury that couldn’t be afforded for almost 25 years until the last child left the nest. But horse ownership had changed so much in those 25 years. And so had training. Something called “natural horsemanship” was everywhere, touting the notion that anyone could train her own horse to be the perfect partner, if only she attended a clinic, purchased the special equipment, watched the DVDs and believed.
And believe I did, for almost six years. I took lessons, bought or rented DVDs, went to clinics and purchased rope halter, sticks, hackamores, lead ropes. I purchased not one, but two, untrained horses, thinking I could train them myself. But something else had changed in those 25 years too. I had lost my confidence to ride. I wouldn’t call it all-out fear, because I could mount a school horse without hesitation and took riding lessons sporadically for several years, trying to overcome the lack of confidence I had in riding my own horses. Finally, the inevitable happened and after being thrown from my horse, the realization set in: I needed to stop thinking I could train my own green horse via natural horsemanship and get my horse to a professional trainer.
The article sort of bashes natural horsemanship. What I see is that a purported life-long horseowner with a vet as a stepfather took a 25 year hiatus from horses, jumped on someone’s marketing bandwagon (ignoring any real horsemanship skills she had as a “lifelong horseowner”?), purchased 2 untrained horses, lost her confidence riding but rode her untrained horses anyway, got bucked off, and now blames Natural Horsemanship for it. The rider needs to blame her own bad decisions! No one forced her to buy two untrained horses after 25 years “out” of horses and work with them on the ground only for 6 years. Seems like she’s doing the natural horsemanship stuff wrong anyway. You can’t learn any discipline by DVDs, clinics and books.
This same article could have been about a purported life-long horseowner with a vet as a step-father that took a 25 year hiatus from horses, jumped on the marketing bandwagon that real dressage riders buy purpose-bred European-bred horses, purchased 2 untrained Jazz youngsters in addition to a subscription to Dressage Today and various DVDs (because they will train her to ride dressage), lost her confidence doing only groundwork for 6 years but got on her untrained horses anyway, got bucked off, now blames Dressage and wants to send her horse to a cowboy for real training.
Sheesh!
You can lead a person to water but you can’t stop them tossing it aside and grabbing the KoolAid.
Is it really pulling the tiger’s tail though? A disdain for natural horsemanship “gurus” is one of the few topics that often gets a consensus on COTH.
“for six years before realizing that all she had to show for it was a spoiled brat horse she was too terrified to ride.”
That about sums up the vast majority of carrot stick swingers I come into contact with. Lots of ground work - no saddle time. The resident peperoni trainer rides at least… she was recently boasting about her first place in dressage! - in an intro level class, at a schooling show, with few entries.
[QUOTE=J-Lu;7788653]
This same article could have been about a purported life-long horseowner with a vet as a step-father that took a 25 year hiatus from horses, jumped on the marketing bandwagon that real dressage riders buy purpose-bred European-bred horses, purchased 2 untrained Jazz youngsters in addition to a subscription to Dressage Today and various DVDs (because they will train her to ride dressage), lost her confidence doing only groundwork for 6 years but got on her untrained horses anyway, got bucked off, now blames Dressage and wants to send her horse to a cowboy for real training.[/QUOTE]
But the thing is. I have never heard of a dressage program that encourages novices to “become horse trainers” by watching DVDs, buying packages of special tack - and attending occasional guru clinics.
If you know of some please send some links!
I can add many links to “guru” natural horsemanship “trainers” who have all their products - videos, special halters, special ropes, etc - and all you need to do is buy the DVDs and go work with your horse with the trademarked halter - and you too will be able to train your horse.
Ahh Pat…
“Pat Parelli has identified four “ways” of playing with horses, four areas in which a horse and human can learn from one another. He dubbed these areas “the Four Savvys.” Together, they form the blueprint that will take your horsemanship to previously unattainable levels.”
You can buy the pack of “Four Savvys” DVDs for only $599.00!! What a small price to “take your horsemanship to previously unattainable levels”
All you need is the DVDs!
She seemed to understand very little about horsemanship, of any kind.
I train using techniques from “natural horsemanship” and I can say she’s doing it wrong, just from her description (the idea that her horse should throw his head up when backing up, every time, is ludicrous). She didn’t get what the whole thing is about. I am not a Pepperoni follower, however, so maybe she did get that right, who knows. Glad she figured out it was wrong for her, at least.
Fast forward to 2:05 - pat shows how to back a horse up out of your space.
And who can forget the pepperoni’s methods when they did their video about training Barney.
I don’t know - I have no issues working with horses. Starting youngsters, halter breaking etc - without swinging ropes in their faces - and certainly NEVER hitting them in the face…
[QUOTE=Kwill;7788766]
She seemed to understand very little about horsemanship, of any kind.
I train using techniques from “natural horsemanship” and I can say she’s doing it wrong, just from her description (the idea that her horse should throw his head up when backing up, every time, is ludicrous). She didn’t get what the whole thing is about. I am not a Pepperoni follower, however, so maybe she did get that right, who knows. Glad she figured out it was wrong for her, at least.[/QUOTE]
I am sorry to tell you that the horsemanship she was following does start by bopping horses around the head to move them and not just backing.
I have the original seven games tape and, after watching it and watching Mr Parelli himself demonstrate them, I did tell him, very nicely, that his system was very interesting, but that horses were showing much resistance and maybe a bit more quiet handling would help.
He said, that comes in the higher levels, then we expect horses to respond with very little from the rider.
Ok, completely against what I learned, that the horse would tell on you if you were rough and if it did, you better be more careful, or you would not stay in the riding instructor programs.
Especially bopping a horse over the head was seriously frowned upon.
No, I didn’t tell him that.
I know when you hit walls you should not keep banging your head on them.
When you see a whole large group of horses in a clinic, with the ones at the other end of the lead bopping horses around happily, some times around the head, it does look very silly.
Good that horses are so good natured and keep trying to figure what all that rope twirling is about.
I am not surprised that, after a while, horse’s body is tight from that kind of handling.
Glad that lady at least came to her senses, even if it took her six years to do so.
This guy is my current “favorite” natural horsemanship “trainer.” And per his FB page, he only charges a very reasonable $420 initial fee, then just $20/month thereafter. :winkgrin:
http://friendshiptraining.org/
I have actually never seen a Parellli tape or anything but a brief video clip (which was not my cup of tea), so I have no idea what he teaches, but it sounds terrible!
Meh, the lady sounds like she herself is the main problem. She’s going to be surprised when she switches methods and find most of her issues follow her to the new one.
[QUOTE=gaitedincali;7789172]
Meh, the lady sounds like she herself is the main problem. She’s going to be surprised when she switches methods and find most of her issues follow her to the new one.[/QUOTE]
Maybe not if she finds a good teacher.
[QUOTE=gaitedincali;7789172]
Meh, the lady sounds like she herself is the main problem. She’s going to be surprised when she switches methods and find most of her issues follow her to the new one.[/QUOTE]
I doubt it. No “method” would work if she wasn’t self aware. She has obviously gained some self awareness here, she has realized that she is not a horse trainer, she is not qualified, and she needs the help of proven professionals. Regardless of discipline or “method” the people that have problems have them because they don’t realize any of those things. The “gurus” feed off of people.
This woman no longer thinks she is a trainer that can do it herself.
If you are afraid, and you still think you can train a horse, you will fail. If you are afraid, realize that, and find a real pro to help you, you have a much better chance of succeeding.
[QUOTE=californianinkansas;7788888]
This guy is my current “favorite” natural horsemanship “trainer.” And per his FB page, he only charges a very reasonable $420 initial fee, then just $20/month thereafter. :winkgrin:[/QUOTE]
What guy?
[QUOTE=Appsolute;7788694]
But the thing is. I have never heard of a dressage program that encourages novices to “become horse trainers” by watching DVDs, buying packages of special tack - and attending occasional guru clinics.
If you know of some please send some links!
I can add many links to “guru” natural horsemanship “trainers” who have all their products - videos, special halters, special ropes, etc - and all you need to do is buy the DVDs and go work with your horse with the trademarked halter - and you too will be able to train your horse.
Ahh Pat…
“Pat Parelli has identified four “ways” of playing with horses, four areas in which a horse and human can learn from one another. He dubbed these areas “the Four Savvys.” Together, they form the blueprint that will take your horsemanship to previously unattainable levels.”
You can buy the pack of “Four Savvys” DVDs for only $599.00!! What a small price to “take your horsemanship to previously unattainable levels”
All you need is the DVDs![/QUOTE]
Appsolute,
I see what you are saying, but I think you and the woman who wrote the article are lumping ALL NH people (and perhaps hard-core Parelli types, which is just one kind of NH) into one big group. This woman, a “lifelong horsewoman”, should have known better than to buy 2 untrained horses and to think that a DVD program was going to help her. I mean, come on! Look at how many people complain about a “crank noseband” in dressage, while having no clue about what the crank noseband is supposed to be about (i.e. NOT cranked down to the last possible hole). You might have a problem with Parelli and their marketing but that doesn’t represent all NH-types. Yes, there are Parelli people who never actually ride their horse. There are dressage types who will never graduate training level.
As primarily a dressage rider, I can tell you that there are alot of people who have watched all of the Savoie videos and read magazine articles or books from Classical Masters and think they can ride/train dressage. They buy horses they can’t ride because top riders and trainers in Dressage Today/the local dressage barn tell them that they should buy purpose bred horses if they want to do dressage. They buy those Pessoa rigs and other rigs to teach their horse to “longe in a frame”. They crank the neck into a “neck-in”, have their horse go on the forehand while doing lateral work, crank their horses gaits down and never understand what “moving forward and over the back” is and guess what, those horses develop physical problems over time, too! Bad riding and training is bad riding and training. Period!
This woman doesn’t get to blame Natural Horsemanship - the entire discipline - for her own very bad decisions. She needs to blame herself!
[QUOTE=Appsolute;7788830]
Fast forward to 2:05 - pat shows how to back a horse up out of your space.
And who can forget the pepperoni’s methods when they did their video about training Barney.
I don’t know - I have no issues working with horses. Starting youngsters, halter breaking etc - without swinging ropes in their faces - and certainly NEVER hitting them in the face…[/QUOTE]
I can’t believe I’m saying this… but there’s nothing offensive about the first two videos, in my opinion. Neither horse looks distressed or upset and they both look calm. I don’t understand your point.
Look at how many people complain about a “crank noseband” in dressage, while having no clue about what the crank noseband is supposed to be about (i.e. NOT cranked down to the last possible hole).
I have to ask. What IS the point of the mechanism on a crank noseband? What does it do other than have extra padding that a normal noseband won’t do? I don’t get the point of them, and yet these days it seems nearly impossible to find a bridle that doesn’t have either a flash or a crank.
(I have ridden one horse I might have just used a crank on, but it would’ve been fitted like a normal noseband and I would have been using it just for the padding since he was happier with padding tucked between him and the buckle because he had sensitive skin. He would not have needed the ‘crank’ part.)
[QUOTE=Cindyg;7789200]
What guy?[/QUOTE]
SMH:o
Thank you for noticing that! I fixed it. But, just in case, here is the link: http://friendshiptraining.org/
On the NPHFS (Nicky P. Hissy Fit Scale, with 0 NP =a normal person, and 10 NPs =when NP unsuccessfully sued CoTH), Friendship Training guy only rates at about 5 NPs (so far at least).
[QUOTE=J-Lu;7789201]
Appsolute,
I see what you are saying, but I think you and the woman who wrote the article are lumping ALL NH people (and perhaps hard-core Parelli types, which is just one kind of NH) into one big group. This woman, a “lifelong horsewoman”, should have known better than to buy 2 untrained horses and to think that a DVD program was going to help her. I mean, come on! Look at how many people complain about a “crank noseband” in dressage, while having no clue about what the crank noseband is supposed to be about (i.e. NOT cranked down to the last possible hole). You might have a problem with Parelli and their marketing but that doesn’t represent all NH-types. Yes, there are Parelli people who never actually ride their horse. There are dressage types who will never graduate training level.
As primarily a dressage rider, I can tell you that there are alot of people who have watched all of the Savoie videos and read magazine articles or books from Classical Masters and think they can ride/train dressage. They buy horses they can’t ride because top riders and trainers in Dressage Today/the local dressage barn tell them that they should buy purpose bred horses if they want to do dressage. They buy those Pessoa rigs and other rigs to teach their horse to “longe in a frame”. They crank the neck into a “neck-in”, have their horse go on the forehand while doing lateral work, crank their horses gaits down and never understand what “moving forward and over the back” is and guess what, those horses develop physical problems over time, too! Bad riding and training is bad riding and training. Period!
This woman doesn’t get to blame Natural Horsemanship - the entire discipline - for her own very bad decisions. She needs to blame herself![/QUOTE]
Are you cognizant what the Parelli system represents and teaches?
I am not sure, because your post doesn’t address that.
Their system is a rather strange one, based on some even stranger ideas of how horses are supposed to be handled and ridden.
It is geared all to the human, the horse a prop.
Here is an older thread with very interesting insights and details of the Parelli system:
I think that lady would have learned and been doing something in any one traditional discipline, with her start riding young, in a couple of years, under traditional instruction, if she had not taken a side trip into NH, especially the Parelli brand.
I am sure she had lots of fun in that program, but I wonder if her horse did and she finally realized it was not very good, plus she didn’t learn basic horsemanship and basic riding principles from that program, because it is not part of it, they have their own strange way of riding, “fluidity” and monkey and other such.
I think that was an interesting article, if I do agree with several that have mentioned, the lady also misses some, may not have really been as experienced initially as she seems to think.
Learning about horses is a journey for all that try, not everyone goes the same route or is after the same goals.
Interesting article showing how someone did walk her path.
