Why is Saratoga " The Graveyard of Champions"?

[Sandy_M]

[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;8294656]
For a small number of folks (speaking in relative terms) that may be true, but the the majority of folks who follow racing, go to the tracks, etc. they aren’t going to remember anything but the winner.[/QUOTE]

Hmmmm…you know - and I am saying this seriously, not facetiously - I cannot remember the name of the horse who beat Zenyatta in her final Breeders Cup Classic. At the time, I said, “They may not remember who won, but they’ll remember who finished second.”

ETA…Blame??

[Gestalt]

Hahaha, Blame it was! I remember him very well. A superlative horse. Funny how the zee didn’t get the job done when she met a horse with his grit. He should have been horse of the year.

[spotted_draft_x_fill]

I felt bad for anyone who worked for Claiborne after Blame beat Zenyatta. They were given so much grief over that, you know how dare their horse beat the undefeated queen :lol:

[gumtree]

[QUOTE=danceronice;8295431]
Yeah, it’s not like they forgot that Secreta-i-whoosis horse after he won the TC then lost to a horse named Onion. Heck, AP’s win percentage is STILL better than Secretariat’s. Seattle Slew came into the TC undefeated (AP lost his first start) and lost I think his very next out. Good horses get beat. In this case he had a shorter break between races than he had between the Belmont and Haskell, he shipped in very late before the race, he’s had a long season. Second is nothing to sneeze at.[/QUOTE]

Sorry, but there is NO comparison.

Secretariat ran 9 times as a 2 year old winning 8 times including 6 Stake races
The Sanford
The Hopeful
The Futurity
Champagne* (placed second for interference)
Laurel Futurity
The Garden State.

Pharoah ran 3 times, 2 stakes neither of which are of the same caliber as the above

Del Mar Futurity
FrontRunner

The Triple Crown Races.

Secretariat

KY Derby 1:59.2
Preakness 1:53
Belmont 2:24 (by 31 lengths)

Pharoah

KY Derby 2:03.01
Preakness 1:59.04
Belmont 2:26.4

Setting the track record in all 3 races. A record that has not been equaled to date

When Secretariat won the Belmont it was his 15 race, Pharoah had only run 8 times.

It is generally accepted that 1 second equals 5 lengths. So if the two had run against each other theoretically;

Derby Secretariat by 15 lengths

Preakness Secretariat by 25 lengths

Belmont by 10 lengths.

In September Secretariat ran in the Marlboro Cup against older horses. Winning by 3 ½ over his stable mate and KY Derby winner of 72 Riva Ridge. Who was also bred and owned by the Meadow Stable something the movie left out. The great Cougar was third.

Secretariat was named Champion 2 and 3 year old. Horse of the Year twice, 72 & 73 AND Champion Turf Horse.

Pharoah will certainly be named Champion 3 year old and most likely Horse of the year. But that doesn’t come close to Secretariat’s accolades.

It is well documented that Secretariat had several non-racing health issues. Which compromised his early 3 year old season and his lose in the Wood Memorial.

His loss to Onion in the Whitney and Prove Out in the Woodward were loses. Both of the horses were trained by the late great Allen Jerkins. Hence his moniker “The Giant Killer”

I rest my case.

[gumtree]

A bit of Saratoga trivia that adds to the topic. The often used term “upset” was just “another” word until;

“It was at Saratoga, in 1919, that the word “upset” entered the American sports lexicon. That’s when a horse named Upset beat the mighty Man o’ War. It was the original Big Red’s only defeat.”

In those days, the word upset had a more literal meaning, along the lines of tip over, or capsize. But it had no particular connection with sports.

“Then came Upset’s victory over the seemingly invincible Man o’ War. So shocking was Upset’s triumph over Man o’ War, that sports scribes began to describe unexpected outcomes in other sports like football and basketball by saying so-and-so “pulled off an Upset.” Eventually, the capitalized “U” in Upset became lower case as upset became a part of regular usage, and a word we know well today.”

[caffeinated]

[QUOTE=gumtree;8295971]
A bit of Saratoga trivia that adds to the topic. The often used term “upset” was just “another” word until;

“It was at Saratoga, in 1919, that the word “upset” entered the American sports lexicon. That’s when a horse named Upset beat the mighty Man o’ War. It was the original Big Red’s only defeat.”

In those days, the word upset had a more literal meaning, along the lines of tip over, or capsize. But it had no particular connection with sports.

“Then came Upset’s victory over the seemingly invincible Man o’ War. So shocking was Upset’s triumph over Man o’ War, that sports scribes began to describe unexpected outcomes in other sports like football and basketball by saying so-and-so “pulled off an Upset.” Eventually, the capitalized “U” in Upset became lower case as upset became a part of regular usage, and a word we know well today.”[/QUOTE]

I have read elsewhere that this is not the case…

https://www.visualthesaurus.com/cm/wordroutes/debunking-the-legend-of-upset/

I think Upset was named for the term/idea, not the other way around

[Shammy_Davis]

[QUOTE=gumtree;8295953]
Sorry, but there is NO comparison.

Secretariat ran 9 times as a 2 year old winning 8 times including 6 Stake races
The Sanford
The Hopeful
The Futurity
Champagne* (placed second for interference)
Laurel Futurity
The Garden State.

Pharoah ran 3 times, 2 stakes neither of which are of the same caliber as the above

Del Mar Futurity
FrontRunner

The Triple Crown Races.

Secretariat

KY Derby 1:59.2
Preakness 1:53
Belmont 2:24 (by 31 lengths)

Pharoah

KY Derby 2:03.01
Preakness 1:59.04
Belmont 2:26.4

Setting the track record in all 3 races. A record that has not been equaled to date

When Secretariat won the Belmont it was his 15 race, Pharoah had only run 8 times.

It is generally accepted that 1 second equals 5 lengths. So if the two had run against each other theoretically;

Derby Secretariat by 15 lengths

Preakness Secretariat by 25 lengths

Belmont by 10 lengths.

In September Secretariat ran in the Marlboro Cup against older horses. Winning by 3 ½ over his stable mate and KY Derby winner of 72 Riva Ridge. Who was also bred and owned by the Meadow Stable something the movie left out. The great Cougar was third.

Secretariat was named Champion 2 and 3 year old. Horse of the Year twice, 72 & 73 AND Champion Turf Horse.

Pharoah will certainly be named Champion 3 year old and most likely Horse of the year. But that doesn’t come close to Secretariat’s accolades.

It is well documented that Secretariat had several non-racing health issues. Which compromised his early 3 year old season and his lose in the Wood Memorial.

His loss to Onion in the Whitney and Prove Out in the Woodward were loses. Both of the horses were trained by the late great Allen Jerkins. Hence his moniker “The Giant Killer”

I rest my case.[/QUOTE]

Your case is well made. JMHO but historically there have been a great many derby crops that went without a Triple Crown winner that makes this year’s crop look mediocre at best.

[greenleaf]

1st thing; in my opinion, Blame is more famous than Zenyatta. Everyone wants to see Blame at the farm, the one who beat her.

2nd; why or how is the 1 1/4 Travers so much different than the Derby 1 1/4???

I looked at the race time between the two because the Travers was reported as faster pace than the Derby. But is wasn’t, until the end. 201.5 compared to 203.1 This is per the Youtube videos.

I guess that begs the question; why could AP not keep up in this race, but he surpassed horses in the Derby?
The shipping
The number of races?

We all know other horses have raced more often and shipped more often.

I really don’t care of the reason. A little perplexed as to why Travers was supposed to be an easy win for horse players, betting on AP

[Shammy_Davis]

Deja vu. Early thoughts on this crop.

http://www.tracktimestoday.net/articles/pending.html

[Sandy_M]

[QUOTE=Gestalt;8295589]
Hahaha, Blame it was! I remember him very well. A superlative horse. Funny how the zee didn’t get the job done when she met a horse with his grit. He should have been horse of the year.[/QUOTE]

Well, she did leave it a bit late…happens with come-from-behind types - but it was still a valiant effort on her part, and no “blame” to Blame! LOL

Surely the most infamous come-from-behind horse - at least in California - would have to be Silky Sullivan, of fond memory. They used to parade him around at Golden Gate Field on St. Patrick’s Day each year after he retired. Santa Anita Derby winner coming from last place at the head of the stretch, but unplaced in the Ky. Derby. Handsome horse - big chestnut. Someone once said that he was just a “Quarter Horse with a delayed trigger.” He’d lope along behind the field, then thrown in a BLAZING 1/4 mile. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn’t. ;0)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silky_Sullivan

[Lady_Eboshi]

Are they going to race AP until he either breaks down or gets sour enough that he starts getting beaten by lesser horses regularly?

Does that have a point?

What more does the first Triple Crown winner in a generation have to PROVE?

PLEASE send him to stud already, before there’s a senseless tragedy!

[Where_sMyWhite]

I don’t get this “hurry up and retire AP”… why him and not all the other thousands of race horses that continue to race after they win a race or two?

He is, after all, a race horse. For some, retiring should be the “greed” card to ensure he is available for the shed and the millions that will bring in profit.

If he’d won the Travers would there be a call to retire him or continue to allow him to showcase his abilities and make more $$ on the track? (As I’ve seen comments that retiring him is greedy.)

As as been pointed out, it wasn’t like he finished up the track. It wasn’t like he was really beaten by a “lesser” horse. Keen Ice, Frosted, he was in nice company. Just on that day, Keen Ice was better and not by much.

IMO, AP is just like any other race horse that steps foot on a track. He doesn’t know what he’s done, only we have applied artificial goals that he’s managed to achieve. Any comment that is made about him should be made and applied to any race horse. At this stage in his career, there is no clue what he’ll be like in the shed… Fertile? Liking to breed? Creating new race horses with his ability? All unknowns.

[harvestmoon]

[QUOTE=Lady Eboshi;8296277]
Are they going to race AP until he either breaks down or gets sour enough that he starts getting beaten by lesser horses regularly?

Does that have a point?

What more does the first Triple Crown winner in a generation have to PROVE?

PLEASE send him to stud already, before there’s a senseless tragedy![/QUOTE]

Secretariat, who retired at the end of his 3yo season, ran SIX times after the Belmont. He lost twice, running second both times. Once to Onion (a glorified claimer) and once to Prove Out (a decent horse, but no Secretariat).

Both Seattle Slew and Affirmed…[insert dramatic music]…raced at 4. :eek: :eek: And they both lost! :eek: Multiple times! :eek: :eek: Affirmed won his next start after the Belmont (the Jim Dandy)…but then had quite an impressive losing streak; lost 5 times (including a 2nd in the Travers). Broke that streak, though, and won his last 7 races.

If winning the Triple Crown nowadays equals immediate retirement, then meh. What’s the point.

AP ran a good race; showed his heart! He was tired but still managed to put away Frosted, who was pushing him the entire way around. Pharoah just didn’t have enough to hold off a decent closer.

Rest him up for the BC and he’ll be fine. One more race is hardly running him into the ground or throwing him to the wolves. If he’s healthy and sound, run him.

[Shammy_Davis]

[QUOTE=Lady Eboshi;8296277]
Are they going to race AP until he either breaks down or gets sour enough that he starts getting beaten by lesser horses regularly?

Does that have a point?

What more does the first Triple Crown winner in a generation have to PROVE?

PLEASE send him to stud already, before there’s a senseless tragedy![/QUOTE]

What else does he have to prove? Maybe that he deserves to be rated #1 in the world. AP is a racehorse after all. To believe your thinking the industry would be breeding for “pasture ornaments.” Retiring every derby aged horse is going to destroy the industry imo. Lots of nice racehorses listed below. Is AP better than all of them? The BC will prove that he is.

http://www.horseracingintfed.com/resources/WTRRankings/LWBRR.asp?batch=23

[Madeline]

[QUOTE=Lady Eboshi;8296277]

What more does the first Triple Crown winner in a generation have to PROVE?

![/QUOTE]

He needs to prove that he’s the best horse out this year, not just the best horse in MAy-June. He should show that he can beat his contemporaries later in the season, that he can beat older horses, and that he can beat the best of the mares.
Go to equibase and look up the records of some of the horses generally considered “great.” American Pharoah is not there. Yet.

[Sandy_M]

Most people complain that big winners - Derby/Triple Crown type horses - are retired too early, not too late! Most people tend to get happy when Derby quality horses are raced as 4* and 5 year* olds. It is too bad that the Jockey Club doesn’t permit anything but live cover. I imagine a lot more good horses would race for a few more years if AI were permitted. I know the Jockey Club has “reasons,” just saying. Wondering why the STB industry seems to be able to live with AI, but not the Jockey Club.

FWIW, Personally, I wish the big races were for 4 year olds. Then I’d worry less about breakdowns. Sht still happens, but at least that would perhaps make it a bit less frequent.

[LaurieB]

[QUOTE=Lady Eboshi;8296277]
Are they going to race AP until he either breaks down or gets sour enough that he starts getting beaten by lesser horses regularly?

Does that have a point?

What more does the first Triple Crown winner in a generation have to PROVE?

PLEASE send him to stud already, before there’s a senseless tragedy![/QUOTE]

He’s a sound, healthy horse being cared for by experts. He has about the same chance of suffering a senseless tragedy where he is as any horse does running around its pasture.

[Shammy_Davis]

[QUOTE=Sandy M;8296523]
Most people complain that big winners - Derby/Triple Crown type horses - are retired too early, not too late! Most people tend to get happy when Derby quality horses are raced as 4* and 5 year* olds. It is too bad that the Jockey Club doesn’t permit anything but live cover. I imagine a lot more good horses would race for a few more years if AI were permitted. I know the Jockey Club has “reasons,” just saying. Wondering why the STB industry seems to be able to live with AI, but not the Jockey Club.

FWIW, Personally, I wish the big races were for 4 year olds. Then I’d worry less about breakdowns. Sht still happens, but at least that would perhaps make it a bit less frequent.[/QUOTE]

In the TB industry, “sht happens" and AI are both an issue. Compared to other breeds that allow AI like the STB "sht happens” much less because of live cover. The issue is soundness not where sperm first gets to swim.

[SportArab]

I don’t know about that Shammy. I remember the days before AI when multiple mares would be shipped to a farm for breeding and on the way the halters would get mixed up and the mares would get covered by the wrong stallions - first clue, babies came out the wrong (read impossible) colors. There were plenty of mistakes before there was AI. At least with AI, the mare owner makes sure the right mare is bred.

[Shammy_Davis]

[QUOTE=SportArab;8296571]
I don’t know about that Shammy. I remember the days before AI when multiple mares would be shipped to a farm for breeding and on the way the halters would get mixed up and the mares would get covered by the wrong stallions - first clue, babies came out the wrong (read impossible) colors. There were plenty of mistakes before there was AI. At least with AI, the mare owner makes sure the right mare is bred.[/QUOTE]

The JC requires DNA testing. Pictures. Marking identifications. Let’s keep the conversation current, with all do respect. What makes you think AI precludes mistakes? I think we’re probably looking at different points in time as it relates to breeding.