why is Seattle Slew bad in sporthorse bloodlines?

[Simkie]

@bornfreenowexpensive;6430077

What is the neck that you don’t like? Most of the “grand” kids that I’ve known have had very nice necks and top lines. But again…SS was just a grandsire and there were other mixes. Most I’ve known had good shoulders and nice movement but i haven’t noticed a particularly strong stamp—unlike a horse like Mr. Prospector who even several generations back, I can see the hind end (a good thing) that he tends to pass on.

Well, what I’m talking about in what you quoted is a potential propensity for arthritis in the neck.

The set of the neck that I don’t like is a bit tough for me to explain but can been seen well enough by looking through his get:

http://www.pedigreequery.com/avenue+of+flags
http://www.pedigreequery.com/biloxi+palace
http://www.pedigreequery.com/cant+be+slew
http://www.pedigreequery.com/chief+seattle

etc.

I don’t like the way the neck comes out of the shoulder or the shape of it or the way the head is attached. Looks very unelegant to me. And they all seem to have it. Shrug.

[grayarabpony]

Not trying to be argumentative but I rather like the looks of Can’t Be Slew.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

@Simkie;6430153

Well, what I’m talking about in what you quoted is a potential propensity for arthritis in the neck.

The set of the neck that I don’t like is a bit tough for me to explain but can been seen well enough by looking through his get:

http://www.pedigreequery.com/avenue+of+flags
http://www.pedigreequery.com/biloxi+palace
http://www.pedigreequery.com/cant+be+slew
http://www.pedigreequery.com/chief+seattle

etc.

I don’t like the way the neck comes out of the shoulder or the shape of it or the way the head is attached. Looks very unelegant to me. And they all seem to have it. Shrug.

intersting…I don’t find those necks all that bad for a sport horse (geared for eventing). But the gelding I had who was a grandson did not have a neck like that…he was a very classic hunter looking horse and drop dead gorgeous.

none of the ones that I’ve know have had issues…so I think it is who you know.

Current mare is by Rock Slide–who is by AP Indy (son of SS). http://www.pedigreequery.com/rock+slide

I don’t think he has a bad neck although I like my mare’s is even better for a sport horse. Her picture is in my profile.

[EventerAJ]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;6430167]
Not trying to be argumentative but I rather like the looks of Can’t Be Slew.[/QUOTE]

Agreed. I wouldn’t send him home!

Simkie, I won’t discount the possibility that Slew could have perpetuated “neck unsoundness.” I just don’t know. But even if he did, it may or may not be evident from physical conformation as viewed by a photo.

Sort of like OCDs. Lots of horses get them, despite having “normal” appearing conformation. It’s an internal thing, not specifically a result of angles/placement, and you don’t know it unless you x-ray (or see a big huge swelling and/or lameness).

Personally, I like a neck that comes up high out of the chest, arching from the withers, as seen in Can’t Be Slew. Until you can definitively prove that THAT neck is a “faulty” neck, I’ll keep liking it!

Quite a few AP Indys have a neck like that, including:
Malibu Moon
Pulpit (Pulpit’s underneck is ugly)

and Pulpit’s sons, Tapit and Corinthian.

This neck seems to be fairly heritable. Personally, I haven’t known any of those sires to be associated with neck problems. But maybe I just haven’t met enough horses. ?

[harvestmoon]

[QUOTE=Simkie;6430053]
Okay, let’s compare apples to apples with the sires you cite:

Northern Dancer:
79% starters
80% winners from starters
29% blacktype winners from starters

Bold Ruler is above

Danzig:
77% starters
81% winners from starters
23% blacktype winners from starters

Danehill:
84% starters
77% winners from starters
17% blacktype winners from starters

Giant’s Causeway:
64% starters
64% winners from starters
10% blacktype winners from starters

Yeah, I think I’ll still hold that Slew was inconsistent I don’t mind the you don’t agree. You can have all the Slew bred horses that I’m not interested in, and I hope they do beautifully for you :)[/QUOTE]

Well, there’s probably a middle ground with this argument. You’re right, starters/winners are an important factor (and there are stallions with higher percentages), but I don’t think you can ignore (to quote my friend) “racing class” when judging a stallion. You mentioned Poker…

Poker
451 foals
379 (84%) starters
273 (61%) winners
19 (4%) SW
$7,614,192 earnings
1.08 AEI

Seattle Slew
1103 foals
783 (71%) starters
537 (49%) winners
111 (10%) SW
$84,544,458 earnings
3.69 AEI

So, sure, Poker may have higher percentages when it comes to starters/winners, but I don’t think you can even compare the two. One is a really good sire, the other isn’t. Poker’s greatest contribution was producing Seattle Slew’s dam.

Anyway, yes, if you happen upon any A.P. Indy geldings, do let me know. He can come join some of his brothers from a different mother.

Pardon the mud:
http://i47.tinypic.com/2nhhvk5.jpg
(photo by Jamie Newell)

First time under saddle, post-track:
http://i45.tinypic.com/2yoc29c.jpg

Oh, and just cuz this photo always amuses me:
http://i46.tinypic.com/8yun3a.jpg

[secretariat]

Calember - no disrespect intended. He was a hell of a lot more successful horse than I have been a man. But that does not change my conclusion - IF he were alive, which I am quite aware he is not, I would not breed to him for a sport horse. Not a racing comment, not an emotional comment, a conclusion as a professional sport horse producer.

[Simkie]

@EventerAJ;6430237

Simkie, I won’t discount the possibility that Slew could have perpetuated “neck unsoundness.” I just don’t know. But even if he did, it may or may not be evident from physical conformation as viewed by a photo.

Oh, I am definitely not saying that the shape/set of the neck has anything to do with potential soundness issues in the neck. Two separate things

I just dislike the shape and set of the neck. That’s totally my preference and I understand others may think it’s just swell. I’ve disliked the Slew neck for far longer than I’ve known anything about potential issues in the neck!

@harvestmoon;6430286

So, sure, Poker may have higher percentages when it comes to starters/winners, but I don’t think you can even compare the two. One is a really good sire, the other isn’t. Poker’s greatest contribution was producing Seattle Slew’s dam.

But we weren’t talking about CLASS–we were talking about consistency Slew produced some really stellar racehorses, but Poker produced runners and winners more consistently.

[JWB]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;6430167]
Not trying to be argumentative but I rather like the looks of Can’t Be Slew.[/QUOTE]

Me too!

[RWR]

I have a Seattle Slew grandson who is awesome! He’s out of Slewdledo. Raced, evented, and did some dressage. I’d love to find another one like him. He’s only 15.2hh and quite chunky for a TB. He also has a gorgeous, refined head.

[Slewdledo]

We’re favorably comparing POKER to SEATTLE SLEW in terms of the quality of their progeny as racehorses?! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

The most recent poster mentioned Slewdledo - an UNRACED Seattle Slew son from his very first crop. Slewdledo would’ve fit anywhere in the country as a sire of top racehorses. We were lucky to have him here in the NW. And when they finished their racing careers, they could go on and do anything.

Can’t Be Slew has gotten some props here. I have no idea how his babies have done as sporthorses, but he was a total flop as a sire of racehorses. (*My Friend Dave the exception.)

[Slewdledo]

[QUOTE=RWR;6430452]
I have a Seattle Slew grandson who is awesome! He’s out of Slewdledo. Raced, evented, and did some dressage. I’d love to find another one like him. He’s only 15.2hh and quite chunky for a TB. He also has a gorgeous, refined head.[/QUOTE]

Several Slewdledo babies available for adoption at Second Chance Ranch. www.secondchanceranch.org

[Slewdledo]

[QUOTE=Simkie;6430404]

But we weren’t talking about CLASS–we were talking about consistency Slew produced some really stellar racehorses, but Poker produced runners and winners more consistently.[/QUOTE]

Do you know where those wins came? A win is a win, but wins are not equivalent. Check out this horse -
http://www.equineline.com/extendedcontent/bh.cfm?StallionRef=4557461&rtype=stats&ASCID=1443262

His stats are not great. 37% winners/foals. Now consider that many of those winners came in bottom level maidens at tracks like Emerald Downs.

[Simkie]

This is getting a little pedantic, but EVERY other sire we’ve looked at has a better starter % and winner %, barring Giants Causeway. The point was only that Seattle Slew is not a terribly consistent producer, and I think the numbers do back that up. The Seattle Slew bred sport horses I have personally known have also not been consistent.

He seems to be very polarizing, with lots of fans and lots of people who are not terribly impressed.

[Slewdledo]

Here is the stallion today who I think is most comparable to Seattle Slew based on race record/quality of pedigree/opinion of the horse when he entered the stud. He has a lot to do to come close to Slew’s outstanding record of producing flat-ass runners, but his babies are not slouches, either. And of course, it’s a completely different game now.

http://www.equineline.com/extendedcontent/bh.cfm?StallionRef=4322623&rtype=stats&ASCID=1443262

66% starters (includes current 2YOs, I believe)
62% winners/starters

Every sire mentioned MAY have higher percentages, but none of them have produced a Slew o’Gold, Landaluce, Lakeway, Swale, AP Indy, Vindication, Flute…horses who could do it all on the track! 2YO champs, top fillies, colts, older horses, sprinters, milers, routers, even some turfers. And tremendous success as a broodmare sire to boot! Broodmare sire of 223 SWs (including 7 this year) from his daughters, who’ve produced 3,287 foals. That’s 3rd, behind only Sadler’s Wells and Mr. Prospector, whose daughters produced 5,000+ and 4,000+ foals, respectively, with 305 and 387 SWs.

[Slewdledo]

Also - someone above mentioned that you can call any race a stakes. Not true. A stakes race requires that money (entry/starter fees) be put up in order to run. Stakes is short for “sweepstakes.”

[RWR]

[QUOTE=Slewdledo;6430545]
Several Slewdledo babies available for adoption at Second Chance Ranch. www.secondchanceranch.org[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the link! I will check it out.

[vineyridge]

Okay, I recognize that I’m being really pedantic here, but stakes doesn’t come from sweepstakes. The opposite is the case. The verb “stake” had had the meaning “to gamble” since about 1530. The OED speculates that it might come from the Dutch work “staken” which means to fix, place. Th noun “stake” shows up 10 years later.

1. That which is placed at hazard; especially a sum of money , etc. deposited or guaranteed, to be taken by the winner of a game, race, contest, etc. 2. In certain phrases, the condition of being staked. 3. Plural–in horseracing, coursing, etc, the sums of money staked or subscribed by the owners who enter horses or dogs for a contest, the whole to be received as the prize by the owner of the winner or divided among the owners of the animals “placed”. Hence, in singular, a race for money thus staked or subscribed. Also in plural, with defining words as the designation of particular races or classes of races in which the sum of money staked is the prize as distinct from a Plate, Cup, or the like. 1696

According to the OED, the use of the term “sweepstakes” for a “race or contest, in which the whole of the stakes contributed by the competitors are taken by the winner or by certain limited number of them; hence (now usual) the race or contest itself” first showed up in 1773.

[Miichelle]

RWR, FWIW Second Chance only adopts out to people living in WA & OR because they require a lifetime home. If you can no longer keep the horse, for whatever reason, it has to be returned to Second Chance.

[vineyridge]

Take a look back at some of the older threads on this same question. One response that I remember well said that a large number of Slews went into retraining programs while Slew was pumping out the get. Most were good looking and many had a “cute” jump. The problem with them was that most were just not very trainable for heights over about 2’6". They just weren’t the most willing or most obedient or most intelligent.

That trait probably depended a good bit on the mare, and after several generations might be well diluted.

[Equilibrium]

I have a great granddaughter of SS through Humble. I did not choose this breeding. Humble did not do well as a NH stallion here and have heard quite a few stories of not good jumpers and horses having issues. Heidi has neck arthritis and not a good set. Does not come from mother as evident on the siblings of the mother and mother’s mother. It is also not evident in the siblings of Heidi who all have wonderful neck sets and flexibility. Heidi is a diamond and will do anything for you but is limited.

I got on many SS’s in my day. None were straight forward. You could almost guarantee they would end up the toughest horses in the barn to gallop as well. I got on a scant few that I loved. But the difficult and not great were much higher. I personally would stay away from the line. But I’ve had the dealings of many over the years. They just don’t appeal to me. But to each his own.

Terri