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why is Seattle Slew bad in sporthorse bloodlines?

Sport Horse Breeding
#41

I personally do not seek our SS lines but have had a few and known a few dozen others. The ones I’ve had were great…but I picked the horse in front of me not the pedigree.

This gelding I bought as a yearling. Was beautiful–and line bred SS.
http://www.pedigreequery.com/skip11

Dead easy to start and ride. I would classify him as limited in that he was a nice allrounder. The type you could take to a show one day and out hunting the next. Just did everything but was not an international caliber jumper…he did have fantastic show hunter movement and could win a hack class in top company, just too bad he didn’t have that classic jump over a 4’ fence. He was a good horse but not going to be a **+ event horse. He was fine over 3’ and had enough scope to jump 3’6" but needed a good ride over the bigger fences (I did jump 3’6" courses with him)…a total packer at the 3’ level. No neck issues but he died before he was 10 from colic.

I think SS can bring useful things and I will not avoid a horse if he is in a pedigree. As I said, this mare is lovely and I’ve now seen several offspring by this sire Rockslide and liked them all.
http://www.pedigreequery.com/rockstina

But her pedigree has a lot of distance and turf lines. My mare ran more distance races. Although she was not a high end race horse, she did ok in her few starts. Stopped racing because of her owner’s divorce but that was good for me :slight_smile:

I think now, most SS horses have it fairly far back in their pedigrees that unless you have some line breeding, it will be pretty dilute.

#42

My horse is by Secret Hello, out of a Slewpy mare. Here’s his pedigree: http://www.pedigreequery.com/doctors+secret

He inherited that beautiful, honey-colored Seattle Slew eye, but he also has a long back and his topline is not easy to build up. I have some questions about his neck, and would not be surprised if he developed the arthritic issues discussed here.

Conformation photos:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rockandracehorses/5660486266
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rockandracehorses/6154411921
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rockandracehorses/6773396425

He is a sensitive, athletic, and game horse, and he’s a lot of fun to ride. It took a long time to encourage him to open up his trot- when he is tense, he does a sewing-machine trot. And when he’s REALLY tense, he does a jig not unlike Seattle Slew’s “war dance”, featured in this video around 4:39.

It’s hard to say what his athletic potential is, since he’s 16 now and was pretty green when I started working with him a few years back.

Trotting:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rockandracehorses/6997462336

Cantering:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rockandracehorses/5917568286

Over a little jump:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rockandracehorses/5889526641

#43

I recognize that this is purely anecdotal but I have a Seattle Slew granddaughter (unraced, bought from her breeder as a 3yo) who consistently places well at lower-level events, probably doesn’t have the scope for anything above Training but has the.best.brain. of any horse I’ve ever ridden. She won her HT at Novice last weekend in good company (with the lowest score of all the Novice TB’s, got a TIP award for that), and the next week I taught her how to w/t/c bareback and bridleless, just for fun :winkgrin: Not what I would call difficult, or tough, or stubborn in the least bit. She is, however, very small at only around 15.1hh.

Just wanted to share about my horse. Carry on!

#44

For another single data point, mine sounds like the opposite personality of Ransom Rider’s:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/pattons+pegasus

SS on both sides. Can link to pics when I’m home. Anyway, he is gorgeous IMO. Very athletic but in an unconventional way (tall but narrow and lighter framed–very catty and light on his feet, but doesn’t have conventional hunter form o/f). Overall he has a nervous personality and the accompanying vices, though brave to jumps.

I don’t think he is a bad sport horse, but he is very sensitive and needs a better rider than me.

#45

Alibhai - how CUTE is he!!! And yes, that SS eye is just fantastic :slight_smile: I’m hoping my yearling ends up with it :slight_smile:

I don’t see anything wrong with his neck. His high “TB wither” wither leads to an illusion of a neck that looks worse than it is.

#46

[QUOTE=JB;6431374]
Alibhai - how CUTE is he!!! And yes, that SS eye is just fantastic :slight_smile: I’m hoping my yearling ends up with it :slight_smile:

I don’t see anything wrong with his neck. His high “TB wither” wither leads to an illusion of a neck that looks worse than it is.[/QUOTE]

Thanks! We’re having a lot of fun together, and I’ve learned so much from him. I’ve also seen Halo descendants with that same light eye, and I’ve always been a big fan of it.

The neck issue is something I feel from time to time, and the chiropractor has said that it was out a few times when she adjusted him. Of course, the cribbing does not help at all :mad: But this spring, I moved him to 24/7 turnout on about 2 acres of good grass and his cribbing has decreased dramatically.

One thing I forgot to mention about him is that he has a huge walk. It is the best walk I’ve ever felt under saddle. Long, sweeping, and covers a ton of ground. I have no idea where he inherited it from, but it’s the best thing in the world on the trails. It makes up for the typewriter trot :lol:

#47

I don’t have a real opinion on SS as a sport sire. I rode a few grandbabies (by Slew’s Folly) and enjoyed them. But didn’t do alot w/them – fresh off the track and big. Most of the posts are based on experience with only one or two or just a few SS bred horses, which is not a good perspective from a breeding standpoint. I think Terri’s experience galloping a number is useful and Simkie’s observation based on a number of them is also helpful for a better overall perspective. SS certainly wasn’t a model conformation specimen. I would be interested to know the success of his produce in sport at levels above 2’6". Anyone know that? I’m not breeding, but it’s important to take a broader number into consideration if you want to consider or not consider his lines as a breeder.
JMHO
PennyG

#48

When I used to volunteer for the Finger Lakes Trainer Listings with Louise I was always drawn to the Slew horses. I have my own Slew grandson (Number) through Slew O’Gold and he’s a grand horse.

He’s tough - raced 67 times and was a pure professional about it - and retired sound. He’s got a lovely disposition and he’s a handsome horse.

#49

My barn owner has a SS, he’s huge (17hh+ as a three year old), has that neck, but is very quiet – he just got backed the other day, and could care less. So in my experience, I have to go with the quiet crowd, at least so far. He’s not been pushed to do much, so time will tell.

I would not call him gorgeous, however.

#50

OK, to kinda confuse things… After a lot of soul-searching and making some sacrifices, about a month ago I picked up a mare that really needed a new home. (I’ve mentioned her before-- here’s her pedigree: http://www.pedigreequery.com/move+on2) She’s got Slew in 2nd gen on top. But she also has Copelan in 2nd gen on bottom. I own an older mare who is directly by Copelan. As soon as I looked at this mare, I immediately noticed how her leg structure is exactly like my older mare’s. So she’s got the Copelan build for sure (and stands a solid 16.3), with a nice neck that arches well out of her shoulder, and lovely hunter movement. However, Copelan was notorious for passing on white faces and other chrome. This mare is the same dark brown as Slew, with the lovely honey-colored eyes like Alibhai mentioned and not a stitch of white anywhere on her.

I guess my question would ultimately be, with a mare who physically favors her bottom side, would the influence of Slew be negligible when considering her for sport breeding, or would those of you with more experience still take it into account? Also, I know several have mentioned they like the Slew influence better when there’s distance on the bottom, but her dam came from speed (from Copelan and Crozier). So how would that factor into your opinions? Sorry if this is confusing or rambling, just trying to figure out the best path to take with this mare…

#51

You know, realrush, in the end, you have to look at the horse in front of you. Is she well put together? Does she do the job you’re asking of her? Does she have enough positive qualities and athleticism that a foal out of her would be worth it?

And, considering the pedigree, do YOU like the horses that favor the Slew phenotype? If your mare produces something that’s got that Slew stamp, are you going to be happy with that?

Personally, I am paranoid enough about neck issues that IF I wound up with a Slew bred mare that I loved and wanted to breed, I may image the neck before doing so, and if anything was amiss in there, I would not breed her. I would also be worried about producing something with that neck set, which I personally do not like. But there are LOTS of people out there who have no such hangups and produce useful, presumably sound, horses out of their Slew bred mares.

It all depends on what you like and what you want to produce :slight_smile:

#52

SS was used…a lot. There are a LOT of sport horses and even sport horse sires with SS in their pedigree. Your mare has other lines in her pedigree besides SS. If you like her and her type, you breed her and see what she produces. The resulting offspring will have her genes and the sire’s genes. The SS influence, if any, will be minimal.

#53

This guy is my heart horse:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/bragsforwardmotion

I brought him home before I ever looked up his bloodlines. I will also say he’s the sanest horse I’ve ever ridden, and most willing to boot. I’ve had him since he was 4. He’s currently 7. He does have soundness issues (arthritis, locking stifles), but he also toes-out on the near front, raced, was briefly neglected, and lived in a very dry pasture with too many other horses for a brief period of time.

He looks about like this, only his neck is currently a bit thicker from being in more consistant work, since lameness hasn’t been an issue in a year (knock on wood): http://www.flickr.com/photos/erniedubs/5641118516/in/set-72157626663980299/ I wish I had more recent pictures, but yes, he does have a bit of a funky neck.

I’ve worked with other SS progeny that acted like they were on crack- twitchy, snorty, looky things that I was reluctant to even handle. I think there’s probably a lot to be said, though, about what happens between birth and when they came to me, though. But to say ALL SS kids/grandkids/etc are nutso is incorrect.

Just my 2 cents! :slight_smile:

#54

Realrush, check out the pedigree on my guy…
http://www.pedigreequery.com/slews+prancer

The Chewy Slew is one of my all time favorites because the Slew/Caro/Bolero seemed to eliminate all of the heritable problems - like someone was breeding a bit more for soundness than speed.

I loved my boy so much, and a half sibling that was on the track, that I tracked down the mare, Daily Asset (his mother) and leased her for breeding. She died 9 days before I was to get her, of a uterine bleed.

As I said earlier, my guy was sold as a 10 yr old but at 18 is still eventing. I heard several say that theirs maxed out at 3’6, but mine was ridden by Todd Minikus in a clinic and he took him to the top of the standards without an issue. Would have bred for another had he not been a gelding - he would have been a perfect mare!

#55

[QUOTE=FLeventer;6429897]
Horse had a loose screw but could jump the moon and had amazing movement when he was being normal.

but a jerk to ride. I was not impressed due to the fact that was athletic but could not keep it together.[/QUOTE]

this is why I don’t like him.
I don’t like the type he produced. I’ve known only a few so I guess it’s not a big enough pot to make a gross blanket assumption.

The Slew’s that I know of are all about drama–lanky–and an ugly muddy brown color.

#56

I’ev always liked the SS line horses. This is an IDSH with a SS TB line http://s7.photobucket.com/albums/y276/horsetales/?action=view&current=PIC_0665.jpg She is eventing prelim this year

We also bred our RIDSH mare to Gatsby who has SS lines http://s7.photobucket.com/albums/y276/horsetales/?action=view&current=Giddy8-11-11.jpg

#57

[QUOTE=Simkie;6429894]
Oh? Let’s examine the produce records of the sires in his pedigree for comparison.

Seattle Slew:
71% starters
69% winners from starters
14% blacktype winners from starters

Bold Reasoning:
80% starters
94% winners from starters
20% blacktype winners from starters

Poker:
84% starters
72% winners from starters
5% blacktype winners from starters

Boldnesian:
85% starters
81% winners from starters
13% blacktype winners from starters

Bold Ruler:
78% starters
84% winners from starters
29% blacktype winners from starters

Hail to Reason:
85% starters
80% winners from starters
16% blacktype winners from starters

Round Table:
89% starters
76% winners from starters
23% blacktype winners from starters

Jet Action:
87% starters
85% winners from starters
7% blacktype winners from starters

Looks like his get had trouble getting to the track and also had trouble winning, in comparison to the sires in his pedigree. If they ran, they ran well, but there were a lot that didn’t run. I think that makes him inconsistent, don’t you?[/QUOTE]

I understand your point but the comparative statistics you are using are “dated”.
All of the stallions used are from a different era when the average “book” of mares being bred each season would have been on average around 40 or so. Maybe wrong don’t have the reference book handy but I bet I am close. These stallions were closely held and the mares would have been in general of high caliber and more carefully selected. Slew went to stud at the dawn of the “new big book era”. By the mid 80’s popular stallions were covering around 100 mares. By the mid to late 90’s closer to 150. Now a stallion like Scat Daddy covers more then 200. And that’s just northern hemisphere. All of the sires you list were leading stallions in their day, Jet Master being more of a foot note. Some may say given the much smaller number of foals they had each year compared to modern stallion crops makes them that much better. Others conversely given the fact that there just aren’t that many really good mares that fully justify being sent to the top 10 stallions and the fees they command. Therefore diluting the “quality” of their crops. For years any stallion that got 10% stakes was considered a top stallion. Now it is generally accepted due to large books the number is more like 7-8%. Percentage of starters and starters to winners is a number to take into consideration and the higher the better but it is not nearly as important as stakes winners. People that breed and or own horses at the top of the game pay dearly for them. They are not interested in winning just any race. With out having the stats to back me up I would guess that Storm Cat had a rather low start to win percentage. They were either very good or moderate at best. So if you had a moderate one and paid the $500,000 stud fee would you bother to continue the paying training expenses to brake a maiden and win an allowance or two? An unraced stallion prospect is worth more then a non winner.
Sorry to be long winded, even though I kept it short, on something that is a bit off topic but I think it is important for people to understand that simple statistics are just that simple. One has to extrapolate more then what is presented on face value.

#58

[QUOTE=Slewdledo;6430675]
Also - someone above mentioned that you can call any race a stakes. Not true. A stakes race requires that money (entry/starter fees) be put up in order to run. Stakes is short for “sweepstakes.”[/QUOTE]

While technically true and especially in its day the name “stake race” is commonly used to describe a race with a name associated with it. Regardless of prize money and or conditions of entry. Overnight stakes usually only require a nomination fee. Where as a “quality” stakes race requires, a nomination, entry, start fee etc. Most of which if not all is “add” to the purse. This is the reason that the International Pattern Race Committee was set up in the early 70’s. To give relevance and stature, grade/group ratings.

#59

[QUOTE=vineyridge;6430726]
Okay, I recognize that I’m being really pedantic here, but stakes doesn’t come from sweepstakes. The opposite is the case. The verb “stake” had had the meaning “to gamble” since about 1530. The OED speculates that it might come from the Dutch work “staken” which means to fix, place. Th noun “stake” shows up 10 years later.

According to the OED, the use of the term “sweepstakes” for a “race or contest, in which the whole of the stakes contributed by the competitors are taken by the winner or by certain limited number of them; hence (now usual) the race or contest itself” first showed up in 1773.[/QUOTE]

Exactly everybody had a “stake” in the race.

#60

[QUOTE=Simkie;6430053]
Okay, let’s compare apples to apples with the sires you cite:

Northern Dancer:
79% starters
80% winners from starters
29% blacktype winners from starters

Bold Ruler is above

Danzig:
77% starters
81% winners from starters
23% blacktype winners from starters

Danehill:
84% starters
77% winners from starters
17% blacktype winners from starters

Giant’s Causeway:
64% starters
64% winners from starters
10% blacktype winners from starters

Yeah, I think I’ll still hold that Slew was inconsistent :wink: I don’t mind the you don’t agree. You can have all the Slew bred horses that I’m not interested in, and I hope they do beautifully for you :)[/QUOTE]

Again, I agree with your logic but it is still based on “face value”. If I am understanding you correctly. First of all Northern Dancer is the greatest sire, breed changer, bare none. This is not just my opinion. He accomplished this by today’s standard with comparatively small books. His stud fee in the mid 80’s was $1 mil NG. He stood at best 15-2 and all of his races were won on dirt the KY Derby being one. His best horses were raced in the highly completive area of Europe. Go figure. Danzig, one of the “poorest” bred sons of ND only won 3 races. However he stood at Claiborne Farm, as did ND’s son Nijinsky a European “Triple Crown” winner, and was closely held and managed. To this day Claiborne does not believe in the “Big Book” philosophy. Where as Giant’s Causeway and Danehill were/are owned and or managed by Coolmore Stud the inventors of the “big book”. They bred massive books. As you can see the starter, starter to winner % backs up my previous post. IMO Giant’s Causeway is a very good stallion, but Danehill was far better. And his sons are doing quite well also. IMO Bold Ruler was a very good stallion, but remember he had the Phipps backing of top quality mares, but if not for Secretariat……

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