WHY is there no "correct lead" between jumps in a line?

[vxf111]

I always learned that in the hunters, there is no “correct lead” between two fences that comprise the in and out of a line. So for example, if you’re on the left lead and you jump into the outside line and land right, continue on the right lead, and jump out, that scores the same as if you jumped in on the left lead, landed on the left lead and continued, and then jumped out.

If your horse swaps on the straight line going UP to the jump-- that’s a deduction. But if he changes in the air and lands on the same lead as the swap-- that’s A-ok?

I can understand from a logistic POV why you would not want to attempt a change in the middle of a line, and obviously why trotting to change in a line would also be a problem-- but why is it not “better” or more “correct” to approach a jump on a straight line on a lead and then land and continue on that lead while you’re still on the straight line heading to the out jump? You haven’t changed direction or asked for a lead change. Shouldn’t it be better for a horse to hold the lead on a straight line, even as jumps intersect that straight line?

Why shouldn’t a horse that holds the lead score slightly better than one that is otherwise equal but changes lead in the air? There’s no reason that being on a different lead between the fences is a positive thing. I can understand not penalizing it the same as a wrong lead elsewhere on course… but why is it as equally correct as jumping in and landing on the lead you came in with?

On a straight line of related distances, shouldn’t the lead that you approach on and are landing on (to swap in the corner) be preferred over having one lead going in and a different one between the fences? I am not talking about a situation where you jump into a line and then turn, a la the jumpers. I’m talking about jumping in and out of a line with the jumps set straight. Why is either option equally good, score-wise?

[GoodTimes]

Since you’re on a straight line than the lead doesn’t affect the balance.

Saying that, if you have two equal trips the horse who held the “correct” lead going down the lines may pin higher. They may have jumped straighter and more balanced in general, they may be more ambidextrous than the horse who changes leads over the jump.

[Redlei44]

@GoodTimes

Since you’re on a straight line than the lead doesn’t affect the balance.

Saying that, if you have two equal trips the horse who held the “correct” lead going down the lines may pin higher. They may have jumped straighter and more balanced in general, they may be more ambidextrous than the horse who changes leads over the jump.

This was my thought as well - if it’s not a rule that the “incorrect” lead may not be penalized, it’s still possible that a judge will pin one over the other even if it’s not common or is basically just a reflection of other factors of the trip.

As to how it’s different than a swap, if nothing else, landing a lead and holding it is a completely smooth visual look. Nothing changes on the ground, and landing a lead is a smooth process. And as @GoodTimes says, it theoretically has no impact on a straight line.

[ajfager]

Well, your argument is there’s no reason for it to be viewed as a positive thing - but by the same token, there’s really not a good reason for it to be viewed as a negative either. It doesn’t impact the horse’s ability to do their job, or disrupt their way of going like a lead swap on the flat might. Most of the time when going in a straight line riders don’t necessarily ask for one lead or the other as they would when anticipating a turn, so it’s really not even “disobedience”. So if I’m asking my horse to go down a line and haven’t asked for a specific lead, I want my horse to choose whatever lead is going to give us the smoothest trip. I suppose the argument could be made that a horse should be perfectly balanced so that neither lead is easier/better and both would produce an equally nice ride down the line, but that’s still a weak case for why not switching is better.

I suppose from an aesthetic point of view it might look nicer if they stay on the lead (and I’m sure some judges think this!), but if it hasn’t bothered most judges so far, I just don’t see a great argument for asking it to bother judges now. I also don’t particularly like using purely aesthetic reasons as an argument for/against something - aiming for a specific “look” over function is how you end up with those AQHA halter horse abominations.

All that to say, unless a specific lead is requested on the patterns, I guess I’m just not sufficiently convinced why not changing leads down the line over the fence is always the objectively better thing.

[vxf111]

By the same reasoning, there’s no objective reason to penalize a horse that goes around the entire course on the left lead so long as he is balanced and meets the jumps perfectly. Yet that is an obvious penalty? If the lead has no impact on a straight line, and your hunter course is a series of straight lines, there’s an argument for never changing leads being as ok as changing them? it just seems very arbitrary to me that the “correct” lead in the direction of travel matters so very much everywhere BUT between the fences and yet between the fences does not count at all.

Not arguing for a rule change. Or disputing that some judges DO prefer one variant over another. Just trying to understand WHY the lead doesn’t matter between two related fences but it DOES matter between two non-related ones.

[Redlei44]

But a hunter course isn’t a series of straight lines, it’s a series of lines and turns, right? The sport decided a long time ago that there is a standard correct lead around a turn, but not a straight line, and a hunter course holds them to that. Your question is really applicable to both the in and the out of a line - why isn’t a hunter penalized for needing to do a lead change if they land the wrong lead off the out of a line before a turn?

[ajfager]

The difference here is that there is an objective benefit to being on the “correct” lead through a turn as in a real hunt it would help provide stability and balance on potentially sloppy terrain. Sure, you can train a horse to be nicely balanced and go well in a perfectly groomed arena, counter-cantering the whole way. But from a functional standpoint, on a real hunt, counter-cantering up and down and around hills on a variety of terrains would hardly be ideal, whereas going down a straight line in the field on either lead would be perfectly acceptable because neither lead presents a clear and functional benefit over the other aside from the horse’s preference. In addition to that, it could be argued that on a real hunt you may not know which way you’ll end up going until you’re to the out-fence so switching leads over the in-fence shouldn’t be penalized.

[Pokerface]

@ajfager

The difference here is that there is an objective benefit to being on the “correct” lead through a turn as in a real hunt it would help provide stability and balance on potentially sloppy terrain. Sure, you can train a horse to be nicely balanced and go well in a perfectly groomed arena, counter-cantering the whole way. But from a functional standpoint, on a real hunt, counter-cantering up and down and around hills on a variety of terrains would hardly be ideal, whereas going down a straight line in the field on either lead would be perfectly acceptable because neither lead presents a clear and functional benefit over the other aside from the horse’s preference. In addition to that, it could be argued that on a real hunt you may not know which way you’ll end up going until you’re to the out-fence so switching leads over the in-fence shouldn’t be penalized.

Yes, I was going to say something along these lines. Our sport descends from field hunters, and when “show hunters” started being a thing, many of the courses were much larger and more spread out than they are now, Horses in a large field could comfortably be on whichever lead until they were turned in a specific direction. Being on the wrong lead is only an issue when you turn (I am currently teaching my 4 year old that there are actually 2 leads, so I am painfully aware of this :lol:), hence the need for a lead change. While we ideally want our horses to be perfectly balanced and comfortable on both leads, that is just not the case for most horses, and as hunting is a long ride, we want our horses to be able to comfortably be able to keep going and not get too worn out. Allowing them to be on whichever lead they are most comfortable with helps maintain their stamina.

As for why we all just can’t gallop around on whichever lead our horse prefers (please, no one mention that idea to my “the right lead is the RIGHT LEAD” horse), the fact is that, no matter how well trained they are to the counter canter, it is still off balance, which is not only going to tire them out faster, it is also dangerous after a while.

An interesting question for debate to be sure!

[CHT]

Leads only really matter in turns, any turn, even a turn in a (bending or broken) line, as tt is an indicator of training and of balance.

A horse that changes leads unnecessarily on a straight line may also be penalized as it shows a lack of obedience, balance and/or favouring one lead.

A good hunter course is designed to show a relatively equal number of left lead and right lead jumps/turns. Some horse’s have different form depending on their lead. We expect our hunters to be trained/conditioned to be fairly equal on both sides as it is the healthiest for a horse’s long term soundness.

[staceymc]

There is no bend in the line, therefore no “correct lead” when you are on the straight line. The inside lead is correct when turning, because of balance.

[FAW]

OK if I got this question right, so you start your course on the left lead home and diagonal away. The diagonal away will still be on that left lead. No change until you jump that second fence of that line. IF the horse changes before between the lines, its a lead swap and the judge will note that and depending how the rest of the horse goes, they may make a big reduction to a 65 or keep it at maybe 70. It MATTERS in the line

[vxf111]

Doesn’t this all beg the question of why a swap in the line is penalized then? If there’s no correct lead while traveling straight? I can see why out hunting over long unrelated distances there is no correct lead in a straightaway but when you are jumping a 6 stride and you can literally see the next jump in front of you is it really fair to say the lead you came into with that is the obvious direction you’re going after isn’t better than the other? Approaching outside line on the left and continuing left after is it really the same as galloping out across terrain where 10 minutes or more pass before you see the next jump? I understand what you are saying in terms of the origin of the rule but it’s puzzling to me that as applied to show jumping in a ring that same reasoning would really apply.

[Tackpud]

@vxf111

Doesn’t this all beg the question of why a swap in the line is penalized then? If there’s no correct lead while traveling straight? I can see why out hunting over long unrelated distances there is no correct lead in a straightaway but when you are jumping a 6 stride and you can literally see the next jump in front of you is it really fair to say the lead you came into with that is the obvious direction you’re going after isn’t better than the other? Approaching outside line on the left and continuing left after is it really the same as galloping out across terrain where 10 minutes or more pass before you see the next jump? I understand what you are saying in terms of the origin of the rule but it’s puzzling to me that as applied to show jumping in a ring that same reasoning would really apply.

A swap inside a line is penalized because it shows a shift of balance on the flat within the line.

[Groom_amp_Taxi]

@Tackpud

A swap inside a line is penalized because it shows a shift of balance on the flat within the line.

Probably another way of saying the same thing, but the swap in the line interrupts the flow.

[mvp]

@Tackpud

A swap inside a line is penalized because it shows a shift of balance on the flat within the line.

Speaking from experience, I think the swap disrupts the rhythm and the pacing more than the balance.

If I were a judge (or a buyer) and I saw a horse stay one one lead more than the other every time he was straight or “could,” I’d make a note. To me, that pattern shows a lack of balance or symmetrical strength or soundness (at a subtle level, perhaps).

[Sticky_Situation]

@mvp

Speaking from experience, I think the swap disrupts the rhythm and the pacing more than the balance.

If I were a judge (or a buyer) and I saw a horse stay one one lead more than the other every time he was straight or “could,” I’d make a note. To me, that pattern shows a lack of balance or symmetrical strength or soundness (at a subtle level, perhaps).

I agree. I don’t see it as necessarily a “problem” if a horse changes leads over a fence as he jumps into a line, but if he’s landing on, say, the left lead off every single fence, that would seem to indicate that he’s crooked or sore somewhere.

[MHM]

@Tackpud

A swap inside a line is penalized because it shows a shift of balance on the flat within the line.

And if it’s based on the traditions of the hunt field, a swap usually indicates a shift off a straight line, which might put you in the path of another horse in the hunt field that is next to you or coming up behind you.

[atl_hunter]

@mvp

Speaking from experience, I think the swap disrupts the rhythm and the pacing more than the balance.

^^THIS. A lead change definitely impacts the stride length, and the lines are based on a consistent length of stride. Also, in front of a jump, you will often see a green horse swap to the more comfortable “take off” lead OR swap to create a half step in front of a jump if the distance is too long as it can close the gap ever so slightly - sometimes it’s so fast and smooth that if you blink you’ll miss it, but it’s definitely a fault.

[Dr_Doolittle]

A little known fact, here (learned from an UL eventing trainer many years ago, and this has been borne out by my personal experience):

IF a horse approaches a jump perfectly straight - as in perpendicular to it - he will land on the opposite lead the majority of the time. This assumes a sound horse who doesn’t favor landing on a particular lead, is straight and balanced both off the ground and in the air, and who is not “asked” by the rider to land on one lead or the other. This is actually advantageous in the hunter ring because if the horse does this, s/he will jump “out” of the line landing on the correct lead for the upcoming corner.

Obviously the horse shouldn’t be swapping IN the line between the fences (and as @atl_hunter mentioned above, some horses will quickly swap to the more comfortable lead the last stride before the jump if they get there long - or sometimes short! - which is a fault), but if a horse jumps in on left lead, lands right lead, jumps out and lands left lead, you’re golden.

In bending lines, the horse will more often land on the same lead if the rider is positioning the horse so as to make that more comfortable - and in the “circle of doom” exercises this is obviously what you want to shoot for - but when jumping a fence off a completely straight approach, landing either lead is fine.

My smart homebred mare will often “read” rings she has jumped in before and anticipate which way we are going to turn after a line, landing on the “correct” lead off the last jump and before the upcoming turn about 80% of the time ;), but since I’m an eventer, our courses are more jumpery with at least 5 changes of direction per round, a few of them rollbacks.

[mvp]

@atl_hunter

^^THIS. A lead change definitely impacts the stride length, and the lines are based on a consistent length of stride. Also, in front of a jump, you will often see a green horse swap to the more comfortable “take off” lead OR swap to create a half step in front of a jump if the distance is too long as it can close the gap ever so slightly - sometimes it’s so fast and smooth that if you blink you’ll miss it, but it’s definitely a fault.

Can you feel it? I wonder if I have ever ridden this. I know I have met my share of fences out of balance (eye roll), but I’m not sure I felt that. You mean that they change in the hind legs as they put those on the ground where they’ll jump from? So they are always squatting harder on one leg or the other?