Yes, it is. There is a curb strap or chain. That coupled with shanks = leverage. And pretty damned severed leverage given the usual long length of the shanks.
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"I never had that impression. Who’s not reading for comprehension now? "
What?
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So I do think the differences in the trees are a big factor, I agree with this post.
Western at its roots is intended for covering a lot of ground in an all day effort to round up cattle. (I live in a free range area, I see horses out rounding up cattle most weeks). You want a relatively level balanced athleticism, and do not want excessive swing in the back - enough to reduce concussion, but not enough to potentially harm or tire the back with that use.
If I want to go all day in an English saddle, I’m more likely to use a cross country saddle which encourages me getting up out of it. I believe dressage saddles and their smaller contact area are ill suited for frequent all day rides. Similarly, western saddles and their contact areas will have pressure points you don’t want for the wellbeing of the horse in the type of movement you want at upper level dressage.
I’d be in favor of allowing western saddles at lower levels only in dressage- but not upper levels due to the nature of the trees. There may be some barrel racing or other saddles where the tree is a different enough shape to not cause problems; my saddles were all suitable for roping on, so that’s the type I knew.
As for sensitivity and responsiveness in a western saddle, I started learning lateral work at 7 from an old cowboy who followed the vaquero type tradition, which as noted has deep roots in classical dressage via Spain. By my teens I had a QH who was quite uphill- it was problematic when showing western pleasure (at the time necks were supposed to be level, not low) but very fun for his athleticism. I was NOT working for uphill dressage gaits, but used lateral work to develop a softer body and carriage, which helped him move in a more appropriate way. Not only did I have lateral work and up to 2 tempis (which would not have had sufficient dressage ring expression, but were clean), but he also could spin, do sliding stops, and chase cattle. In a western saddle, humt seat saddle, bareback, it didn’t matter. My aids were the same in each and he understood them in each. He was SUPER seat and leg sensitive, and super hard mouthed because someone had been afraid of his power and basically ripped his face off before I got him. So, bit choice didn’t matter as long as he could feel aids for lateral flexion, it wasn’t going to do much else for him besides that. I frequently rode in a halter with lead rope on one side, bareback, because it didn’t matter.
Point being, western saddles don’t prevent bend. Depending on fit the fenders can do so if blocking the areas which bend, but they were never a problem for me with my horses/saddles.
Also, of course a spade bit is a leverage bit. By definition, by physics, it is obviously exerting leverage if used. Used correctly, it is not applied harshly to create great leverage, same as the curb on a double bridle. That doesn’t change the nature of the bit and how it acts, though.
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The shanks don’t look that long to me, but the purchase is.
I’m glad that you have now clarified where and how I misunderstood you. I couldn’t figure out what you meant/what your point was in mentioning your authority in dressage when the topic was a rear cinch on a western saddle. From the reader’s POV, why mention it if not to defend your one post at the middle of this dust storm. From my POV your tone in your initial post was quite sure and certain, quite…authoritative.
And again, no one called you stupid. No one.
Perhaps if multiple unrelated strangers are misunderstanding one’s points, there’s something to consider in how one is writing one’s posts.
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Are your English riding friends good enough friends that they’ll let you sit on their horses and walk around a bit? That’s one way to try saddles. My barn mates are always doing that when a new saddle is needed, and it’s amazing how different various makes can feel even if they’re for the same purpose. Are you intrigued by what they do when they ride their own horses? (Jumping, flatwork, dressage, whatever). That’ll at least let you know what you are interested in.
As far as finding a tack shop near you, Google is your friend!
I’d love to see you show up in Western regalia to a “dressahge” show, the snootier the better, but they won’t have a sense of humor about it.
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One runs a successful lesson program and I had planned to work with her to find the exact one once I got closer to that time. But yeah, maybe starting with her is a good idea too.
I’m in no rush, cause, well, baby horse that hasn’t even carried any type of saddle yet. I figure there will be many changes to her shape once she is backed and working, which probably won’t be for another year yet. So what would fit her now and what will fit her then, I am expecting to be significantly different. But it might be helpful to know what fits me ahead of time, so I’m not trying to do two things at once.
Food for thought.
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This comment just makes me sad. Where are these ultra-snooty “dressahge” shows? Do you actually have much showing experience? I’ve shown for many years, and never encountered anything like that. Sorry you seem to have such a low opinion of dressage riders, and it makes me wonder why you hang out on a dressage forum.
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@Maude, I apologize for thread-jacking your post, and will start a new one regarding entering a whole new discipline. But I’m not sure where exactly to put it. Here? Maybe Off Course?
Ok PamnReba, that changes my answer a bit. Since you’ll be dealing with a growing young horse, either pick up a really cheap used saddle that can withstand baby games (like rolling with the saddle on) that just sort of fits baby ok, or a Wintec because the fit can be changed.
@SillyHorse, I was playing with the stereotype to be funny, and yes I have shown. I’m exclusively dressage only relatively recently but evented for many years. The formality of dressage shows far eclipses that of events. Sorry if I offended you or anyone else.
I read Frugalannie’s response as tongue in cheek but, as a dressahge rider myself (only at the very low levels, mind you) I totally understand why there is a certain impression about us being snooty. Some of the responses in this thread are a perfect example. My experiences in the sport as a competitor and a volunteer have not been overwhelmingly positive either.
Just an example, I took a TB of mine to a BNT clinic in Region 9 about 10 years ago. Once the clinician found out he was a TB she spent the rest of the clinic informing all that his struggles were because of his breed. It seemed very pointed and she would question other people in the class about his faults/flaws, but didn’t do it for any of the other riders and horses. She had a lot of general misinformation about the breed and I left with no positive feelings about the clinic or the sport. I took the same horse to another clinic a few months later and that judge/clinician raved about this horse and said he was exactly what most riders need.
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i too have this impression. Its not just frugalannie.
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As I understand it, while the spade bit is a leverage bit, and a pretty severe one, the entire point of years of training, first using a hackamore, then a bosal etc is to train the horse thoroughly BEFORE a bit ever goes in its mouth. Then the bit can be used to give extremely precise instructions with the very lightest of hand.
I haven’t riden with a spade. I’ve riden highly trained horses in Spain and Portugal where everyone rides with curb bits rather than snaffles. They make a horse using the nose rather than the mouth and then put in a curb bit.
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honestly, i have no clue about using dramatic equipment on horses, even though i come from Morgans. I do know about in-dogs though. Some folks i train with use prong collars and e-collars on their working dogs. Take those collars off and dogs are not nearly as responsive. Does not matter whether there is pressure on the prongs or tone on the ecollars…just the fact that they are THERE has the dog’s mind in obedience-mode.
I train without any collar at all btw…
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You said in another thread, one where you were putting down all things dressage, that you’ve never been to a dressage show. So how can you have any kind of informed opinion?
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who said i had an informed opinion? i have an impression though.
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A hackamore is more severe than a snaffle bit as it acts on the sensitive nose area. No wonder why these western horses act so if they’ve been started in a traditional one and continued being trained with such severe leveraged bits, twisted wires and what not.
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Only if you have inexperienced hands, which perhaps you do.
The inside of the mouth and the tongue are every bit as sensitive as the nose. Get real.
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Thanks.
I’d add one or two thoughts:
You traditionally had a bit made for an individual horse. The expert horseman and bit-maker took into account features of that horse’s conformation from features of the inside of his mouth, to his poll and throat latch, all the way down to how his neck ties into his shoulder. I’m sure his personality or mind is considered, too. There is nothing rough or unsophisticated about getting a horse to this stage of his training. Choosing a bit for an advanced horse is like getting ready to buy the shadbelly you’ll wear in the GP ring.
As Maude explained, the Spade bit (and as well as the bosal, definitely, and the whole bitting philosophy of Western world has to do with this idea of a “Signal” bit or device. IMO, this also explains how they choose and use snaffles, though those bits don’t have that much complexity to them. With the spade bit and bosal especially, the horse receives an aid from the way the bit or bosal moves. The spade bit has so much complexity, those long shanks and a particular shape and balance to it, because it touches the horse in several parts of his mouth, and I believe, in a succession when his rider moves his hand in particular ways. The weight of the rains and the rein chains figure in how and when that bit moves, too.
This is unlike the bits and bitting philosophy behind English riding, save the use of a double bridle. But I wouldn’t call any shanked English bit a “signal bit” in the same way a Western one is. If you have contact with a horse’s mouth, your body creates the variety of signals conveyed to the horse via a much simpler bit that is touching his mouth all the time. God knows, it’s very hard to develop the feel and timing required to do that well.
It takes a ton of sensitivity to learn to ride and make up a bridle horse because so much of the ride has to come from your body, not your hand. And before you ever put a horse in a spade bit, you’d have him doing everything you want in a bosal. If you think you are a pretty good rider and trainer, I invite you to try making even a good hackamore horse. If you ever get a chance to take a lesson from someone’s advanced, he-knows-the-job hackamore horse, take it. You might get a schooling on just how much of a hand-rider you are, even if you are a very competent English rider. And training this horse is even harder. The bosal won’t let you directly shape a horse’s head, neck and body the way you can if you are skilled with a snaffle.
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Say what?
A horse on the journey to a spade never gets abused in the mouth if they are brought along by someone knowledgeable. You are making sweeping and invalid assertions.
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