Why No Western Saddles Allowed in Regular Dressage?

[DMK]

just be aware impressions can be self fulfilling prophecies, should you ever find yourself competing at a dressage show. And that would be a shame, since you will only prevent yourself from making new friends.

I’ve shown in a few disciplines over my decades of competing, and I’m usually the person going it alone and not part of a trainer’s students/group, so I know a little bit about showing up at a venue not knowing a soul. My most recent ventures were to take up combined driving and dressage and I showed hunters up until recently. Here’s my take: You can always find a stand offish, “snobbish” person* if you go looking for them. In ANY sport (you will have to look harder in driving though). And you can find a lot more friends with the exact same effort. It’s really just a matter of how YOU want to spend your time.

'* (and sometimes that stand offish/snobbish person is shy, an introvert or just a bundle of show nerves, so you know, try not to take it personally)

[smoofox]

@mvp

And not for nuthin’, but that “meh” mind you describe has its uses! While English people (often taught their horsemanship with TBs being the horse-of-tradition) want break-away tieing options or can’t leave Pookie in the trailer while they take a much-needed piss at a horse show, the Quarterhorse is taught to stand tied for as long as required and plenty of them are “bar broke”-- meaning that they’ll stand in the trailer for as long as you want to stay in the bar and drink on the way home from a job. And y’all should see the schooling ring at a big show like the Quarter Horse Congress. It’s Lower Manhattan at 5 pm, but the horses are all business and doing as they are told.

In my decades of experience working with horses of many breeds in a variety of disciplines and dealing with the resultant trainers, barn managers and owners… temperament is an Individual thing that is not dependent on breed.

For example… “Pookies” come in all breeds as well. The biggest freakout in a trailer that I ever personally witnessed was a QH… who also did not tie.

I have seen horses capable of standing tied quietly and be “bar broke” for long periods of time - and they were not all QHs.

The schooling rings at any of the huge shows are like rush hour… with most horses being all business and doing as they are told… even without the draw reins and constant fussing at the reins that many exhibitors/trainers seem to prefer for warming up - even in the QH world.

Some common axioms are simply not true… all Arabians are not hot… nor are all Thoroughbreds… all Appaloosas are not slow and dumb… all QHs are not perfect.

The craziest horse I have ever known was a stunning red dun QH mare… who was sent to my amazing trainer friend who specialized in difficult horses. He was her last hope. They were making slow, steady progress working through that mare’s issues - and Bruce’s quiet, calm ways and amazing horse sense seemed to be helping this mare after any physical issues were eliminated. Just when all seemed to be going well, the switch went off and that mare completely snapped… as Bruce calmly watched her rage in her spacious paddock and bite chunks out of the fence posts… then try to charge through the gate to attack anyone and anything on the other side… he accepted that this was the only horse he would ever give up on and acknowledged that she was a danger to herself as well as others. That breathtakingly beautiful mare was euthanized and freed of her demons.

The best therapeutic riding horse I have ever worked with - bar none (sorry, Fjords!) - was an Arabian mare… a former grand champion show horse (halter, saddleseat). She was amazing… and I have not encountered her equal in the 20 years since I knew her.

A good horse has no breed.

[Maude]

A spade bit is a signal. It only becomes a leverage bit if used improperly. Like so many use a curb on a double.

[Maude]

You are welcome to stay right here😉

[Maude]

I can tell you that a good bridle horse trainer could get on a properly trained GP horse and ride it well. The same could not be said about most GP riders sitting on a bridle horse

[Maude]

The spade is not a leverage bit or severe unless used improperly

[endlessclimb]

It’s a leverage bit no matter what, it’s the design of the bit. The second part holds true.

[Feathered_Feet]

@beowulf

Just an example, I took a TB of mine to a BNT clinic in Region 9 about 10 years ago. Once the clinician found out he was a TB she spent the rest of the clinic informing all that his struggles were because of his breed. It seemed very pointed and she would question other people in the class about his faults/flaws, but didn’t do it for any of the other riders and horses. She had a lot of general misinformation about the breed and I left with no positive feelings about the clinic or the sport.

Was this BNT J Foy, by chance? (Let the record show that, despite her faults, I very much like her. But this would not be the first time someone has had this experience at her clinics!)

[atlatl]

@sascha

@Maude

The bit is not a leverage bit

Yes, it is. There is a curb strap or chain. That coupled with shanks = leverage. And pretty damned severed leverage given the usual long length of the shanks.

Actually, it’s the shanks alone that make any bit a leverage bit. This is because of physics and the definition of torque which is Force applied multiplied by the length of the “lever arm”, in this case the shank. This is the same principle by which a “cheater bar” works to get lug nuts off a wheel when changing a tire. Increase the length of the lever arm and the same force results in greater torque.

The more severe the mouth piece, the more skilled the rider should be. It’s that old razor blade in the hand of a monkey thing. In skilled hands, it’s a highly sensitive communication between rider and horse.

The curb chain/strap functions to put pressure on the chin of the horse, basically discouraging them from opening their mouths to avoid the bit pressure on the roof of the mouth. The bit is rotated in the horse’s mouth when the rider pulls on the reins, with or without a curb.

There’s a great book out there on all the different types of bits and their uses. It old and it’s paperback with a yellow cover and I’m too lazy to walk to the other room to get the title. Snaffles are good for turning but not so great for stopping; curb bits are good for stopping, not so great for turning which I’m guessing helps us understand why Western riders neck rein.

As already noted by others, the vaquero tradition is very disciplined with respect to starting horses in a bosal and gradually educating the horse (and rider) to a full bridle horse.

For every person out there plugging away in a western saddle, I think there’s at least one in an English or dressage saddle equally educated or uneducated depending on your point of view.

I’ve spent considerable time in both worlds; AQHA lifetime member, over a dozen amateur all around and runner up awards, points in 8 events, USDF bronze and silver medals, all-breeds awards and year end awards; I’m still learning. The basics are, or should be, the same. Heck, even the German riding manual says all horses should be initially trained as dressage horses.

[sascha]

@Maude

The spade is not a leverage bit or severe unless used improperly

It is absolutely a leverage bit. It doesn’t matter how it’s used, how it is introduced, etc. It is by definition of frickin’ science a leverage bit.

Whether that leverage is used to a damaging extent or not is all on the user, but it absolutely cannot be argued that it is not a leverage bit. Take the curb strap or chain off and it could be used as a sort of straight bar bit with no possibility of leverage, but then you’ve got nothing to prevent that spade from jamming right up into the roof of the horse’s mouth.

By design and proper (with curb strap or chain) it is a leverage bit whether you like the word leverage or not or think that it might have bad connotations with dressage people who also use leverage bits, btw. All curb style bits are leverage bits.

[Brown_Derby]

The bit shown here is not a true spade. That is a high port copper covered roller that some catalogs market as a spade. A true spade is usually custom-made for the horse and possibly his get. It rests in the mouth in a natural position, NO HEADSTALL IS NEEDED if perfectly fitted and balanced. You should see the cowboys weighing and noodling an old Garcia in their palms. It is a science.

Flank cinch, I keep mine at a sane tautness. But when I took a filly for a cutting lesson to get her used to cattle, the first thing the trainer did was lengthen it such that there was a good 6 inch gap. He was used to his flat seat cutting saddle and liked my wade just fine.

I wish MysticOak was still on our boards! She judged me and my colt in a Western dressage class at a schooling show (at least 10 years ago). It was a very new concept (no official bodies) and a client wanted to try it; so I helped fill the class. We just did the USDF Intro classes. Rocked my beloved, gorgeous 1980’s fringed h/j chaps. Rode in my wade and a mecate. Had a blast and yes, many sweet people came up to me to see my cow pony, g. Because pony was so sane, we ended up providing escort service from the warm up to the court for a local BNT’s jacked up lunatic.

[SillyHorse]

@SillyHorse

You said in another thread, one where you were putting down all things dressage, that you’ve never been to a dressage show. So how can you have any kind of informed opinion?

@eightpondfarm

who said i had an informed opinion? i have an impression though.

Let me rephrase: How do you have any kind of impression of something you’ve never seen?

[Maude]

You are uneducated if that is what you believe. I’m talking about a good horseman. What about all the jerseys riders that put their horses in a double before they’re ready

[Maude]

Love this post

[atlatl]

@beowulf

Just an example, I took a TB of mine to a BNT clinic in Region 9 about 10 years ago. Once the clinician found out he was a TB she spent the rest of the clinic informing all that his struggles were because of his breed.

That’s OK, I rode my mare in a clinic a couple of years ago and while we were walking around the clinician pointed out what she saw as my mare’s conformation flaws. My favorite was the observation that her front legs were shorter than the rear legs so it would be hard for her to sit. It wasn’t done in an unkind way, but still annoyed me.

Then we started to trot … One of the ending comments was about how when the mare trotted and used herself it was “simply magnificent!”

[Mersidoats]

@mvp

The expert horseman and bit-maker took into account features of that horse’s conformation from features of the inside of his mouth, to his poll and throat latch, all the way down to how his neck ties into his shoulder. I’m sure his personality or mind is considered, too. There is nothing rough or unsophisticated about getting a horse to this stage of his training. Choosing a bit for an advanced horse is like getting ready to buy the shadbelly you’ll wear in the GP ring.

I would love to see this kind of care taken in selecting a bit for any discipline. Was just talking about this with my coach - we have all sorts of expertise for saddles, shoeing, training, even down to the boots you can put on your horse… but nothing in the dressage world for bits. Nothing that even comes close to this.

It’s only a leverage bit if you use it like a leverage bit. The signal from the spade on the tongue has a quicker effect than the pressure on the poll… if you are using this bit correctly. You can, of course, blow through that spade signal and simply crunch down on the horse’s poll and jaw with more pressure.

[endlessclimb]

@atlatl

The curb chain/strap functions to put pressure on the chin of the horse, basically discouraging them from opening their mouths to avoid the bit pressure on the roof of the mouth.

No. It grabs the lower jaw only, so literally cant do that. They can gape and gaw just fine with it on. It provides another pressure point, and exponentially increases the potential severity of the bit by giving it a “stop” or a pinch point.

[Maude]

Then we can argue about how tight the curb strap is, no?

[Maude]

Yes, it is considered a half breed spade.

[sascha]

The fruitbat? The curb strap/chain can be over-tightened or too loose, both of which cause problems, opposite problems, but that has nothing to do with whether a spade bit is a leverage bit or not. It absolutely is and, I’m sorry, but you’re terribly ignorant of how bits work if you still believe that it isn’t.