It will probably take less time if you use your hands. 
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I’ve tried several Black Countrys. Nada. The GPD would be a good one to try though should I pursue a dressage saddle in the future.
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I love it. Since it’s GP the flap is a bit more forward (which is good for my long thighs) but it doesn’t throw your seat off like a lot of GPs do. It was actually advertised as straight dressage, then I figured out it actually was a GPD when I was trying to figure out which model it was after I bought it. I got reeeeeally lucky with it though, I bought it off ebay for pretty cheap and it fit both my appendix baby and QH mare perfectly.
Holy crap! My science teachers would be proud!
Who knew that understanding such basic concepts of leverage and fulcrums would elevate those of us with the most basic understanding of physics to Physics Geeks. I’ma go get myself a t-shirt and hat printed up right now.
You can debate all you want on the best way to use a spade bit, the intended way of using a spade bit, etc., but debating whether it is not a leverage bit by design does not serve you well. If leverage were not part of the design, spade bits would have neither shanks nor a curb strap/chain.
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Ha! Go say that to Archimedes. 
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More off topic stuff, but I like such discussions so thanks!
Nah, he was a brilliant Algebraist and a good human being, but otherwise pretty wacky. I think between undergrad and grad school, I took 6 semesters of Abstract Algebra from him. It’s just the way he saw things, definitely wasn’t trying to own anything.
A bit Orwellian there I think! I’ve spent enough time with mathematicians to state with some certainty that they are pretty strong individualists many of whom see things very differently from society as a whole and are more like those people whose electrons aren’t flowing where the establishment wants them to flow. Even Hollywood knows this (The Imitation Game, Good Will Hunting, etc). Mathematicians are not the reductionists you describe, I think that’s the game of authoritarians and intolerants, but that’s another discussion.
One of the key problem solving techniques used in math is this thing called “reduce the problem to one previously solved” and there are a boatload of math geek jokes related to that concept. In a nutshell, if you want to solve a problem, you break it down into smaller pieces that may themselves be solvable and then aggregate those solutions back up into the bigger solution. I don’t see that as reductionism as you describe but rather understanding things at their core.
Going back to epistemology, one could think of it as classic progression from data to information to knowledge to wisdom but going in both directions. Well, at least I do 
Applying this to equestrian pursuits, someone can learn that an aid/concept exists, say inside leg to outside hand, but until they learn how to apply it, understand what that aid is intended to accomplish and how to identify when to apply it, they aren’t going to be as effective a rider as they could be.
So, physical anthropology is not ethnology so there’s not much inference about culture going on there. I typed (man that really dates me!) the hub’s thesis on mandibular morphology so at least I’ve read one excellent paper where the author was able to identify race, age and gender pretty reliably from mandibles (back to the chin/jaw/whatever!) by looking at ratios of various measurements; dare I name it, could it be math?
As far as screwing calculus, I’ll take a hard pass. Math is the language of the universe and more of us should at least visit once in awhile.
A final shout out to math: The shirt I wore to a pre-pandemic March for Science pictured a sine wave and proudly declared Mathematics: Make America Integrate!!
Thanks for the interesting discussion!
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Discussions like this are part of the reason I love COTH. Thanks so much!
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OK, this discussion no longer holds my interest. I was never good at math (loved geometry though). If anyone is interested in discussing bridle horse horsemanship or using western gear while pursuing a harmonious relationship with their horse, please feel free to take it into a private message. Bottom line…my horse and I love learning new things and we have a great relationship. I wonder if some of the people here who are hell bent to argue do the same with their own horse.
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OP, you might find the magazine, “Eclectic Horseman” helpful in your quest.
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Thanks!
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As this discussion has wandered all over the place I shall add a further slight digression.
The Wallace Collection, an amazing family collection of art, furniture, objects d’art and armour in London (www.wallacecollection.org). I was visiting the armour galleries and came across a highly ornate bit, on display in a case amongst various lethal sharp and pointy objects. The lable said 15th century horse bit. I was staring at it very hard, trying to work out how it could possibly fit in to the mouth of a horse when the penny dropped. It was a spade bit, with wires and cricket etc. just like ones still used in the vaquero tradition (and not a bit I’ve seen in real life) but it was hanging upside down on the stand it was displayed on. I wrote an email to the Curator pointing this out and he replied to say the stand was made several years ago and it fitted the bit so well! That still makes me cross. Would the Curator be so dismissive if a piece of a suit of armour was displayed incorrectly? Hah!
I’ve just looked online and see that a new display of equestrian armour has recently been opened in the museum. An impressive full set of armour, for both man and horse, has been rearranged since I last saw it. The girth is now correctly positioned: I had pointed out it was acting as a bucking strap in that same famous email.
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I’m probably one of those you consider hell bent to argue. Nope, but I’m not going to have someone repeatedly tell me that shoes don’t exist or people don’t wear clothing or cats and dogs are the sameaimal and let that slide.
Likewise, if my horse tries to tell me she’s only had 38 mints when I know she’s had 102, we’re going to have a discussion and I’m going to spell it out in simple terms she should be able to understand for her level of knowledge. Good thing she’s smart enough to understand! Mind you, she’s also smart enough to communicate when she doesn’t understand something and will take correction and explanation in stride and not throw a wobbly over me being “wrong”
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Some of my reflections on curb bits, namely Weymouths that I usually use with a double bridle though I did ride two different horses with just a curb, one for a whole summer, the other for years. I taught the first horse I rode with just the curb how to neck rein (well he eventually got the idea) so I had no difficulties turning him with the Weymouth. The other horse, a very fiery Paso Fino mare, consented to be peaceful, obedient and content in a Walking Horse curb bit I chose for her after trying maybe 50 curb bits on my arm in a tack store one day, mostly regular Western curbs, not spade bits. I turned her by using my legs combined with some neck reining.
Except for a minute or two the first time the horse wears a curb bit I do not keep contact with the curb bit. I will do contact briefly with the curb bit if the shanks are 5", my hands are not good enough to keep contact with a curb with 7" shanks (the horses go behind the vertical). My contact with the 5" shank Weymouth is not hard contact, more of a close connection with relaxed fingers and my hands following the horse’s mouth. I do this contact during the first ride with it to show the horse that the curb bit does not hurt in my hands, and is mainly an interesting addition to the bridle.
With the double bridle I keep contact with the bradoon but my curb reins usually sag, and I give my hand aid to the curb bit by tweaking my little fingers at most maybe 1/8" as the horse’s head comes up, with an immediate full release.
Is this the way that the spade bit people do the hand aids with the spade bit?
Am I using the Weymouth curbs as a “signal bit” or am I missing something really, really important?
I have been sort of fascinated by spade bits once I read how a well trained spade bit horse and its well trained rider can have a “conversation” between the horse’s tongue and the rider’s relaxed fingers. I never got into it because of the necessary years of riding with gradually decreasing width rawhide bosals before the horse is really ready for a spade bit physically and mentally, and besides a good spade bit is EXPENSIVE! So never fear, I will not be rushing out to buy a spade bit to use on the horses I ride because I know my limitations, limitations that preclude playing around with a spade bit.
But I am curious about just what the proper rein signals are with a “signal bit”.
When I lived in Chile a lot of the huasos (cowboys) used the even harsher Moorish ring curb, with a metal ring hung on the top of a rather tall port (1" to 1 1/2" high?) which went around their lower jaw (instead of a curb chain/strap) on their finished horses. I never rode in one of those bits either and I never got interested in them. Those Chilean horses just did not seem to have the responsiveness of a well trained spade bit horse.
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Genuine question because I think there just may be a terminology linguistics barrier here-- are there any signal bits which do not have leverage?
Back to my own postulating. Spade bits have 2 separate leverage actions at play: via the shanks on the bars of the mouth (from pulling back on the reins or even the weight of the reins, depending on the shank angles) and via the length of the mouthpiece on the roof of the mouth or tongue (if the shanks are activated or if the horse’s own posture changes off of the neutral balance the bit is designed for).
Both of those do send signals to the horse to change his/her posture, for sure. But the action of the bit is via leverage, which multiplies the application of force via displacement.
And yes, I know this sounds mathy or overly analytical but I do think that horse sports especially are heavy on folklore (turmeric for everyone!) and light on first-principles functionality/analysis. And that’s fine for the most part, but can confuse the discussion.
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This thread seemed so familiar to me, and then I remembered why. Carry on…
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African or European?
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I’ve been thinking about this, so had to go try, and THANK YOU.
See my little sleepy, very green paint, LOVED, me just tightening my inner thigh, nothing else, just the inner thigh, in our multi layer saddle with thick pad under it
He was just so awesome, guess what we can side pass, something he has struggled with. Was he trained that way? NO, because he had nothing installed when he came, but I’m blown away how he reacted…
We were also working on his neck reining, and when he gets that, we will transition from snaffle to baby curb, neck rein FIRST, then transition the bit.
ETA!
I just looked and see the photo shows him in a curb, this was a photo shoot to see what it looks like, and an inspiration shot. When he is ready he will go from snaffle to baby curb, then from baby curb to the dragon bit there! No rush, just one day.
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I’d suggest researching Bruce Sandifer and Jim Derby. I’m not an expert. There are also good books. Someone posted some on this thread.
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