Why No Western Saddles Allowed in Regular Dressage?

[Mersidoats]

No. Not at all. With an educated rider, the bit will cause zero pain. It is not used to first cause pain, and then the horse obeys out of fear, curls, or backs off the contact. That is not how these bits are designed to work. That is not how educated riding works.

Now, an uneducated rider who who has no understanding of how the horse is ridden off of the seat and how to carefully manipulate these bits will cause pain because they will use the bit in the WRONG WAY. These bits move in millimeters, maybe fractions of millimeters. Imperceptible to most of us.

[eightpondfarm]

they move in millimeters because to do more would inflict pain. Half a mil pressure = “signal” Two mils of pressure = hurt. gotcha. Yeah, this is so humane.

[Mersidoats]

Again, used on an educated horse, with an educated rider, there is. No. Pain. A finished bridle horse can hold this bit in its mouth without a head stall. It’s stunning to behold.

If you do not wish to understand how this tradition of training a horse works, that is fine. But a closed mind doesn’t grow. And a good rider can ride in any bit without hurting the horse.

[eightpondfarm]

A liberty rider is much more impressive. I am not one to embrace all the punitive devices/methods.

[Maude]

Cowboy Dressage Freestyle at the Gold N Grand.

I enjoyed watching the harmony between horse and rider. This guy has a nice quiet seat and a soft hand. You can hear the horse playing with the cricket at the end and he is certainly not stressed out.

[Maude]

What is Doma Vaquera?

[eightpondfarm]

Spanish say there is no pain in bullfighting too. They revere the bravery, laude the harmonious dance between bull and the bullfighter too. They find majesty, dignity and beauty in it.
I find it a spectacle of horror.

[alicen]

Yikes! I’m imagining that bit being displayed upside down.

[Aussie_2020]

What type of reins am I seeing?

[beowulf]

For the uninitiated, can you explain the reason for dragging the pole?

I’ll say it again. I’ve really enjoyed this thread. There’s so much about other disciplines – particularly western – that I just don’t know.

P.S - I watch that video and think that is a horse that I’d want to ride.

[Scribbler]

The pole is traditionally used to herd cattle, rather than a lasso, in Spain and Portugal. The competition of Doma Vaquero uses the pole in creative ways. I think it’s fair to say that Doma Vaquero is a precursor or influence of Working Equitation.

Doma Vaquero as I understand it is the actual Spanish from Spain tradition as opposed to the American Vaquero or Buckaroo tradition from the American West, which has Spanish roots of course. The spade bit and the western saddle with horn are both American tradition.

Vaquero is to Western riding what traditional dressage is to English riding, the cues refined and subtle and lifted to an art. In Working Equitation especially with Iberian horses the horses compete in obstacles fast and slow, dressage, and at higher levels in cattle work. So that’s where the two disciplines come back together again.

[skydy]

Though it was a long time ago I do remember that the “western” horses I was allowed to show, were complete in their self carriage. I never rode a horse in a spade, but the horses I rode in the Garcia bits (some with a low port and some in a Salinas mouthpiece) were not ever ridden on contact.
They carried the bit, and the curb strap was never engaged. All cues were from the seat and leg and from the slightest rein aids, either a slight shift to the neck rein if necessary, which was seldom needed, or a closing or opening of the fingers . I would have been taken off any horse in two seconds flat if I had abused their mouths or actually engaged the curb strap.

It is a completely different method of riding between riding on contact with a snaffle or full bridle and riding those horses that were trained in the non-contact western manner.

Of course any bit can be abused, but my mentors did not abuse their horses’ mouths. They taught me horsemanship before I moved on to the English disciplines and I am grateful for their very strict guidance. They can not in any way, shape, or form be compared to bullfighters.

[Alterration]

A main difference between cows & herding in the American west vs cows & herding in Spain is the terrain. In the west we have a lot of space to run away from an aggressive bull or run down an errant calf. In Spain it is quite hilly, and the cows are said to be much more aggressive, so the garrocha is a tool to guide as well as to “poke” a cow that is feeling a bit too aggressive toward the horse.

Of course, they’ve turned that into an art form now. It is harder than it looks!

[Maude]

See Scribbler’s comment. The pole “garrocha” (sp) is used to herd cattle

[RedHorses]

I wondered that as well. At the very end after he drops the reins and the horse turns it looked to me like the top/tighter rein is on the bosal and the looped rein is on the bit. Perhaps the horse is in the transition period from bosal to bit.

[lorilu]

Don’t forget that here in Florida the old cattlemen used whips to herd cattle rather than lasso etc. Hence the term “Florida Cracker”… I know you said “American west” not disputing this just adding to the convo…

[eightpondfarm]

Florida-cracker. huh, in reference to horse training? I just go-to slave owners and in current time - confederate wannabe racists, when i hear ‘cracker’

[Maude]

Why are you such a negative person? You should probably just “unsee” this thread.

[Maude]

Interesting! I never knew where that term originated.

[eightpondfarm]

@Maude

Why are you such a negative person? You should probably just “unsee” this thread.

news-flash: Maude, you are a just some irrelevant, random stranger on the internet. I really don’t care what you think of me.

And to reiterate, I have never heard the term: Florida-Cracker relative to horses. OTOH, have heard “cracker” in reference to racist types a lot.