Why No Western Saddles Allowed in Regular Dressage?

[piaffequeen2]

I’m going to change my original reply since I saw that OP is not interested in getting her gold. She might try asking the show if she can ride in her western saddle but will probably have more luck with schooling shows.

[KBC]

@Maude

I’m not going to argue your point of view. I would have considered this a torture device once

Yeah, me to! Coming from the UK, strictly English background horse wise, I thought they were evil. It was quite the revelation to find that some people “bit up” for other reasons than I was used to.

[Maude]

Not to worry.

[jvanrens]

@Maude

You are uneducated if that is what you believe. I’m talking about a good horseman. What about all the jerseys riders that put their horses in a double before they’re ready

A hackamore/nosal can be quite harsh, it works not only on the bridge of the nose but the sides of the horse’s face as well. Fir a sensitive skinned horse they can be rubbed raw by one if it’s a stiffer material or it’s over used. There’s a reason some junior horses are shown in a snaffle instead of a bosal.

[Maude]

Absolutely!

[lorilu]

Semantics and how the meaning is connected to the use of the word.
ANything with shanks is a leverage bit by definition, and by physics.
Spade bits are not used as such and so are not leverage bits in the western bit world.

Sort of like the use of common names vs Genus/species. Often, the common name is assigned (in use) to different Genus/species organisms. However the use of the word, combined with the geographic area, usually tells us just what G/s organism is being discussed.

[Haliburton]

@Horselove5

@Willesdon

As I understand it, while the spade bit is a leverage bit, and a pretty severe one, the entire point of years of training, first using a hackamore, then a bosal etc is to train the horse thoroughly BEFORE a bit ever goes in its mouth. Then the bit can be used to give extremely precise instructions with the very lightest of hand.

A hackamore is more severe than a snaffle bit as it acts on the sensitive nose area. No wonder why these western horses act so if they’ve been started in a traditional one and continued being trained with such severe leveraged bits, twisted wires and what not.

The western definition of a hackamore is not the same as what you may be thinking of, which in that context would be referred to as a “mechanical hackamore”. I believe @Willesdon may be referring to something that could also be called a side pull, this applies direct pressure to the head (no leverage). Can also substitute with a halter

[OfCourseItsAnAlter]

@lorilu

Spade bits are not used as such and so are not leverage bits in the western bit world.

Sure they are. The problem is not semantics, it’s education. There are plenty of terms used in the horse world that are incorrect, but if you grew up always hearing it that way and never learned any better, you won’t know that.

How many times here are people advised to get their kids into Pony Club or 4-H, or work with a qualified trainer, so that they can become educated about horses and riding? This weird debate is the same thing - educating people about how bits work and the correct terminology to use to describe bits and their actions.

Do you really want to take the position that it doesn’t matter if you’re wrong as long as everyone around you is wrong, too?

Off on a (related) tangent…

The OP cited a web site, elvaquero.com, as evidence that spade bits are signal bits, NOT leverage bits. Yesterday, in an effort to avoid work, I spent a little bit of time looking at that web site. I was not impressed. Here is what El Vaquero said about the Western curb bits that we, the great unwashed, are using:

The horse trained and ridden in a leverage bit is not taught to carry the bit or have any sensitivity to its shape or configuration. They most often just respond to the curb strap pressure. A rider’s goal when using a leverage bit is to engage the curb strap as quickly as possible to achieve the expected results, that is to stop or at least slow down.

The leverage bits are simple to understand; pull until they stop, and if that doesn’t work, pull harder. For those who only want to dabble in horse ownership, those who do not want to completely submerge themselves in the unplumbed depths of horsemanship, the leverage bits are probably the best answer.

Arrogant much? I mean, seriously? That’s a stunning lack of understanding of how the non-spade leverage (curb) bit should, and can, be used. The goal of a good western trainer is to produce a horse that works off the signal provided by the bit (and other aids) without ever having to apply leveraged force.

Good western curb bits are specifically designed to provide a signal before any real pressure is applied, so the horse can learn to respond to the signal. Being a signal bit is not the exclusive domain of the spade bit. As some expert (I’ve forgotten who) said, the difference between signal and leverage is in the use more than the equipment.

And now I’ve got one foot on the soapbox I said I wasn’t going to climb up on, so I’m going to stop.

[Maude]

Thank you

[Horselove5]

@Haliburton

The western definition of a hackamore is not the same as what you may be thinking of

Yes, I thought that might be the case from the reactions to my post. I’ve already stated here (tread in the dressage forum) that I’ve 0 western exposure, and this is not what I’ve learned about the hackamores in Europe, as well as it’s my personal opinion on the appearance of the other western bits. Interestingly, when I researched the topic on the German web, I found that western riders in Germany are not allowed to show bitless and one book indeed mentioned that some western riders start their horses in a hackamore because of the horse’s teeth development. But again the term used is a hackamore and not something else…

[eightpondfarm]

@OfCourseItsAnAlter

Good western curb bits are specifically designed to provide a signal before any real pressure is applied, so the horse can learn to respond to the signal. Being a signal bit is not the exclusive domain of the spade bit. As some expert (I’ve forgotten who) said, the difference between signal and leverage is in the use more than the equipment.

same philosophy as a tone signal is sent before the ZAP!!! on an electric collar. " The pain is gonna come if you don’t stop what you’re doing."

[LilRanger]

But that’s true of any bit. All of them can become torture devices. The trainer is the key, not the equipment.

[Brown_Derby]

Oh for pity’s sake. Have you never heard of a half halt?

[eightpondfarm]

One can compare a flat leather collar to an e-collar too.
Good trainers do not need to threaten pain to get desired results from their horses. (same is true w/dogs).

@Brown_Derby

Oh for pity’s sake. Have you never heard of a half halt?

r u talking to me? if so, mind elaborating? (i do not understand what you are trying to say…)

[LilRanger]

Of course not, but my point is that bad trainers can evoke pain from anything. The point here is that a well trainer bridle horse (well trained) isn’t threatened by the bit.

I think what you mean is: these bits shouldn’t be made because in the wrong hands they can be torture devices, especially if the trainer is prone to short cuts.

[eightpondfarm]

oh no, that’s not what i mean. Who am i to say what should or shouldn’t be made. I am judgey about the folks who have them/use them/want them though. Again, my right to do so.

[LilRanger]

Of course.

[Brown_Derby]

Perhaps your instructor can elaborate on the half-halt. It can take a lifetime to perfect, a part of the endless opportunity for learning that dressage provides.

[eightpondfarm]

So, you were commenting to me. You were telling me that i do not know how to ride?

oookaaaay. I really don’t care if you think that. but i think it’s a strange leap in the conversation. How did you get there?

[Alterration]

Not at all the same. In fact, on a good bridle horse with a good trainer you never ever hit the roof of the mouth with the spade. Not even once. Never. You do the curb up tightly enough so that it doesn’t rotate enough to touch the roof of the mouth.

This is also why it takes years to make a bridle horse, because you never ever want to get into a situation where you might even be tempted to do so.

I’m just dipping my toes into Doma Vaquera and the Californio system (very closely related) but I’ve learned enough to understand.