Why stall boarding rates need to at least double across the Midwest

[gumtree]

[QUOTE=AmarachAcres;8280914]
A farm is for sale near me.

500k

30 stalls, indoor arena, heated tack, hot water wash stalls, turn out, access to hundreds of acres of trail. 55 acres.

It also has two homes and a shop on the property.

It estimates the mortgage at $1,844/mo.

Seriously, I pay that for my place.

Shavings, let’s say at 5 a bag and two bags a week per stall, worst case all year round: 1500 a month.

A 60# bale feeds 3 horses per day. I can get those if I buy early at 4/5 a bale. So we will go with 5. So for 30 horses that is 10 bales a day, 300 a month: 1500

Monthly cost of the tractor/bush hog + fuel: 450

Spreader is about 3k for a good one, to spread that horse poo on your fields. That would be paid off quick but we will add it on that first year. So monthly you are talking 250.00

This one even has a second home, so you can rent that out in exchange for labor. Many many farms have that.

Most farms and this one have well water. Electricity is say 200.00 a month.

Then you have farm/liability insurance: This varies a ton. I’m going to go with 2k a year. 416.67 a month.

We are currently at: 5960.67

Now, these are average set costs per month. Not including repairs for stalls, fencing, etc… Let’s tack on 500 a month for that stuff.

Now we are at 6460.67

Leaving off feed. To me, feed is so personal per horse that I just will, for our hypothetical, leave that to the owners.

So what is 6460.67 divided by 30 horses? (we will pretend you don’t have your own horse stalled)

215.35.

So even if we had in another 2k of costs I’m not thinking of, PER MONTH: that is 66 extra per horse. So now 275.35. Toss on that profit margin and bump it up 100, or 150. (Again, your house and utilities are already being paid for, which are the reasons most people work in the first place)

$425.00

This number is how a lot of boarding owners I know go with the magical $500.00 and up. You should be allowed to make profit and have have money left over. So an extra 150 per horse on top of costs is 4500.00 extra per month.

Now, this farm price is NOT average but there were plenty of stables in the midwest for sale around that price when I lived there. I have friends who own boarding barns and do just fine financially while taking great care of their property.

That isn’t even counting the profit of lessons, trainers leasing, people paying to haul in, etc…

It also doesn’t include labor. So let’s do that. Even if you pay someone 2k a month that raises the board another 66. That is NO WHERE near 1k.

Tell me how you get to 1 K for the boarders with this farm or others that I KNOW exist in the same price point in the midwest. (non east coasters.)

http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/29303-NE-Timmen-Rd-Ridgefield-WA-98642/23323995_zpid/[/QUOTE]

Assuming the property is being bought and treated as a business and not a principle residence and running a “hobby” operation on the side.

IMO based on real life experience of running a farm as my sole business your “Pro-forma” is based on idealistic numbers. Regardless of location.
Your estimates for the necessary equipment and the cost of is way low. Sure a person can get by with a cheap basic tractor, and other basic stuff. Basic equipment will get a person by but will require a lot more manual labor. The cost of labor has to be factored in.

The number one thing I keep seeing when these discussions come up it the fact that people WAY under estimate the value of THEIR time. Way under value their “quality of life”. Have free time to smell the roses.

If the owner/operator want to have a bare minimum quality of life a 30 stalled horses will need a minimum of an additional 2 full time workers. Plus a part time person to cover for when one of those is a day off once a week.
2 full time employees @ $10 per hours that is the minimum pay if you want to keep them interested. Expect to have a high turnover at that pay level. Assuming they work 6 days, 48 hrs not counting employer taxes, $50,000.

Workman’s comp is expensive for a horse operation. Minimum of 10% of payroll. $5,000. Most insurance companies that offer Workman’s Comp have a minimum which can be a lot higher than $5,000

The average semi-skilled worker in the US makes $50,000. The owner operator has to factor in their pay also.

So right there is another $100,000 minimum. Divided by 30 horses is $277 per horse.

Your hypothetical number of $215 fixed cost for a farm of that size with 30 stalled horses excluding labor is regardless of location is not realistic. Add at least 50%

A somewhat realistic number for fixed cost $320.

Labor expense $277

So the brake even point is $597. Even if the owner/operator is will to work for free 7 days a week, the breakeven point drops to just under $500.

An owner operator should expect to pay themselves and have a “quality of life” also. And should expect to earn a return on investment called “profit”. If the fixed costs are $500 per month, $180,000 per year income on 30 horses. That’s without paying yourself a dime.

If the owner wants a 10% profit margin, $18,000. $50 per horse per month, or $1,66 per horse per day. Is it really worth all of the worry and aggravation at times to make $1.66 per horse? Think about that when you have to go down to the barn every night at 11 for 2 weeks to give meds. Or doing double time because an employee didn’t show up and or quite. Fat chance finding someone to fill that job in short order. And these numbers are based on the owner/operator not being paid a salary let alone a living wage.

$18,000 profit will barely cover the interest being paid to service the mortgage debt. Factor in the cost for a line of credit. Every business needs a line of credit. Especially a horse business.

A profit margin should be based on over all investment. In this case, $500,000, factor in the cost of a 30 year mortgage at 5% an additional $275,000. Loss of use on the $100,000 down payment. On average over a 10 year period $100,000 invested in the stock market will realize a return of 7%. So over 30 years that would be $210,000. Factor in inflation when the property is sold in 30 years, it will need to be worth over $1 million to basically “break even” all things being equal.

The above is assuming that the business will fill all 30 stalls in short order and they will ALWAYS be filled. Fat chance on both accounts. Sure there are other profit centers to be had by giving lessons and selling horses. I can’t speak for other parts of the country but prefer to pay proper money for lesson from someone with a “name”. It takes a number of lean years before getting that “name”.

Selling horses is a total PITA especially inexpensive ones. And you still have to have operating capital to purchase them. Invest time and money in getting them salable above what they cost.

If the sale of horses is being factored in as a profit center what exactly is the profit margin? If the operator is relatively unknown people aren’t exactly going to be throwing horses at them to sell. Most likely horses that others couldn’t sell for the asking price.

If the operator is going to buy green horses for resale and each horse cost say $4,000. They will need at least 5 horses, $20,000. Those 5 horses may need a couple of stalls reducing the boarding stalls. Sure they can live out 24/7 but they will look like they live out 24/7. IME buyers for $3,000 want it to look like a shiny new penny as much if not more than a person buying a $20,000 horse. Those 5 horses could take several months to more than a year to find new homes. Depending on re-sale price. So if the owner is doing all of the riding, training and carrying all of the expenses for say 6 months those $20,000 horses could easily have an additional $6-8,000 in expenses in a best case scenario. Each horse is now $6,000 and in all likelihood worth on average $8-10,000 with little to no “show experience”. Even at $10,000 each and all sell quickly that is only $20,000 in profit for a heck of a lot of work and a lot of risk. Re-selling horses is a numbers game. The more there are the better chance of hitting a homerun with one or two depending on the numbers. Good chance at least 25%+ will lose money.

I am friends with a lot of the “names” in the sport horse world. They will be the first to tell you selling inexpensive horses is rarely profitable to the point of justifying the exercise. There are some people who do make a good living at it. But they are by far the exception.

All of the above are REAL numbers. But very basic “real numbers”. I only add 50% to your number 100% would be more realistic. This is not guess work on my part.

[Miss_Motivation]

Great thread and conversation.

Please note that in California, State Fund is the only place that will issue Worker’s Compensation insurance for stable workers.

At 32% of wages.

So if you find a reliable, capable, honest $10 an hour employee, you will be paying $13.20 for each hour of labor they provide.

There were some deductions available to the 32% rate (being a member of the California Farm Bureau, for example) but in the last two years, most of these helpful deals have been discontinued. You can get a deduction for no claims after a number of years… but you have to pay full ticket for several years first, and of course… have no claims!

I have owned horses since I was a kid, and we always boarded a few for friends in the back yard. I did all the work, and it was pretty easy.

I now own a 50 horse facility and the math has changed, drastically. Our area is competitive for boarding, which limits to some degree what we can charge. Our facility has been extensively upgraded and it’s a nice place.

So far, I have never had a positive EDITDA (Earnings Before Interest, Taxes, Depreciation, Amortization) and the business does not pay fair market rent, pays no share of any mortgage, and pays no property taxes. Nor does it pay me anything for managing the business, which I do in additional to my full-time ‘real’ job.

Talking with other barn owners around the country when we meet at shows, online, etc. I realize that my business situation is not unusual. Boarding, especially when you do not offer a lesson program, training, trail rides, etc. to add to income, is a difficult business.

Boarders can quickly add up what feed and bedding costs, but they have NO idea of the other, less obvious costs. For example, a commercial-quality box stall is a minimum $5,000 to construct- grading, base materials, construction materials, apportioned space for tack, labor, electricity, plumbing/water, fire safety, mats, hardware, fly spray system, feeders, waterers… people simply have no concept of all the hidden costs that go into anything to do with starting a barn. Then add the ongoing costs that are not obvious- for example, rodent control (and yes, we also have barn cats) welding to fix constant damage by horses, replenishing footing materials, irrigation costs and repairs, etc. and it becomes a complicated and costly business.

I have loved refurbishing and running a very nice boarding barn. It brings me great pleasure to look out the window and watch people riding their horses. However, if I had it to do over, I would never have sunk the money and time into our ranch. From a financial perspective, it has been one of the worst investments I have made in my life.

Lastly, when I realize that all the improvements we’ve made don’t add value to the actual real estate, it’s sobering. All the nice things we’ve built and done make it a nicer stable- but if it still creates a business that operates at a loss, or break even at best, then all the investment to improve the facility do not create value that would be realized in a sale. Especially because (like many farm improvements) our upgrades were generally not permitted, they will not count in a property appraisal as adding value to the property. This means a potential buyer had better be a cash buyer, because the existing boarding business, and the unpermitted facilities that make the business possible, will not create a property appraisal that will convince a bank to make a mortgage on the equestrian property.

[mroades]

MM has it right…

[Calamber]

[QUOTE=TrotTrotPumpkn;8280928]
I need to move to Washington State. That place would be over a million (and with a rental!). The bare, unimproved land alone here in SE South Dakota would be over $550,000 most likely.[/QUOTE]

Check out where Ridgefield WA is before you pack up. It is a more that 2 hours due south from Seattle and is closer to Portland. You would be hard pressed to get 15 good paying clients at $500 per horse. That is why it is priced this way. Nearer Seattle and it might be 1 mil but houses are old, small and there are no pics of the insides so I assume not updated. Also look at the fences and the “paddocks” of bent round pen panels. The economic base is not there for any kind of horse business that this property would suggest even if it were in better condition. Additionally it is 30 stalls on 10 acres and some of this is wetland. No way is there turnout for more than 6 - 8 horses tops unless you want to destroy the land.

[IPEsq]

I think you absolutely need to take into account the mortgage if you have a turnkey property and mvp is right that this is where the business has changed in the past few decades. In my area, decent ag acreage with some useable horse facilities runs into the millions. And you are very likely not getting 35 stall barns on that, probably not an indoor (or not one that is very useable), depending on the county. So, then you have thousands per month in mortgage alone to where unless you are wealthy enough to have such property be your hobby farm, you have to structure your business plan to be able to afford the difference between what you could pay for a mortgage if you didn’t have a farm and deciding to purchase the space to run a business. Yet and $800/mo boarding barn here is considered outrageously expensive. Most of those really nice properties are just hobby farms for the wealthy. Maybe they turn the barn into a non-ag rec space even. The boarding facilities have trainers/BMs who run a business on behalf of disinterested BO who is probably just waiting to cash in on their land value, and the properties are deteriorating.

I just did a lot of research trying to find a small, restorable hobby farm that I could fit into my budget if I were to bring my horse home and maybe take on a boarder or three for him to have company, and it was just not doable even for $500k. Any place in that price range needed $50k of work at minimum on the farm part (house may or may not be in good shape) and difficult winter conditions. Some of them needed much more than that if you had space and zoning to do any real horse training type improvements, none of which you would get back unless land value continues to skyrocket. And that was for properties in the range of only 2-10 acres.

[WannabeDQ]

My friend is a trainer and barn owner. She keeps her boarding rates low to attract customers and then makes her money on lessons, shows, training, commissions, etc. If she raised her prices on board to make more profit, she would alienate a lot of potential clients. She has been in business for 15+ years now and this business model works well for her.

I don’t see how boarding alone could ever be a successful business. Maybe the one exception would be a retiree place where they all live out mostly?

[BuddyRoo]

@Wonders12;8280728

BuddyRoo, those prices you quoted for pasture board? That’s the high end of stall board prices here. (Chicago excluded.)

I hear you. But the thing is, I think a lot of places insist on stall board when A) it’s not necessarily the best for the horse B) it increases product costs (ie: shavings) C) it increases manpower costs bringing horses in and turning out D) it increases wear and tear on the facility, etc.

I’m HAPPY to pay that for 24/7 out because my horse is not stuck in a stall from 4PM to 8AM. I am happy to pay that for 24/7 because “cheap” outdoor board usually goes hand in hand with poor care for outdoor horses and a clientele that is looking for “cheap” board. Which, in my experience typically encompasses a group of peeps I don’t much want to deal with.

I think that BO’s should make realistic business plans and charge what they need to charge to provide the care and services that they wish to provide. As long as they’re honest about what they can reasonably do, owners can make good choices.

But if the fact that you charge 350/mo for full board means that you can’t buy hay or can’t maintain your arena or fix the broken fence or the broken wash rack…well…the OP is right. You need to change your fees.

And if you can’t invest in things to make caring for horses on a bigger scale more efficient and require less manual labor ie: own a brush hog, not a tiny yard mower, have a Gator or similar for taking hay and feed out, something to haul manure in other than a push wheel barrow, hoses at every trough and a water source near every stall, etc–well, your labor is going to be ridiculous. So again…raise your fees and provide your staff with the tools to do the work safely and efficiently. YES. I will pay more for that because that’s one good way to retain competent staff. I want them to have time to look at the horses, not just slog buckets and push wheelbarrows.

As a boarder, I don’t necessarily know what your property taxes are. Or what your electric bill is. Or what kind of deal you have on hay or shavings. I expect you to know that and price accordingly and if your price is out of my range, I might board further out or in a different situation with less amenities.

But as someone who has managed a barn/farm and known others who own or run them, I can tell you that a lot of property owners are downright delusional about what their actual expenses are AND about how much it’s costing them especially when they don’t (can’t!?!) invest in technology and machinery. Working a little smarter could save money and raising board to be able to offer a functional, safe environment would likely improve business, not drive it away.

Ultimately, I am all for pricing board based on the cost of doing business. But I think 1k is still a little unrealistic for most parts of the Midwest.

And all of that said…I was approached a few years ago by a rather wealthy man to put together a proposal for a boarding facility. He liked horses and needed a good way to “lose” some money. I thought “A boarding barn would be PERFECT!” ha ha. I mean, not really funny, but seriously. “Oh yes sir, I can lose you some money starting up a barn. You can count on ME!”

[HorseCzar]

This has been some absolutely great discussions. I wish I could reply to each one, but everyone has said some excellent replies.

I do have a proposal and would be curious as to what people thought.

A breakdown such as this: charge $350/month for the stall. Then charge per bag for shavings ($5) then a bale of hay ($7), then charge a fee of $25 a day for administering feed, cleaning stalls, and daily turnout and brining back in. Offer the opportunity for self service, (they would just pay $25 the days they couldn’t do self service). Perhaps have an annual maintenence fee of $250 for general maintenence, (similar to a gym membership).

Would that be so unreasonable?

[Emilia]

[QUOTE=HorseCzar;8282090]
This has been some absolutely great discussions. I wish I could reply to each one, but everyone has said some excellent replies.

I do have a proposal and would be curious as to what people thought.

A breakdown such as this: charge $350/month for the stall. Then charge per bag for shavings ($5) then a bale of hay ($7), then charge a fee of $25 a day for administering feed, cleaning stalls, and daily turnout and brining back in. Offer the opportunity for self service, (they would just pay $25 the days they couldn’t do self service). Perhaps have an annual maintenence fee of $250 for general maintenence, (similar to a gym membership).

Would that be so unreasonable?[/QUOTE]

This sounds quite complicated. I think, most people, especially busy working people, would rather deal with one larger number per month than having to look through a dissected bill like that. I know, I would.

Furthermore, IMO, you would be opening yourself to a lot of quarrel with your clients regarding the number of used shaving bags, hay bales, when the feeding/cleaning needs to be done, etc. (I know people, who casually stroll into the barn at 10 am in the morning to feed their stalled animals.)

Some may feel you are using too much and ask you to cut back. Would you oblige, if it meant compromising your standards?

Turning your barn into partial self-care and some version of a co-op might prove risky.

There are people here on COTH that say it worked for them. They must have encountered a suitable bunch of people. You might, too.

[Pennywell_Bay]

[QUOTE=HorseCzar;8282090]
This has been some absolutely great discussions. I wish I could reply to each one, but everyone has said some excellent replies.

I do have a proposal and would be curious as to what people thought.

A breakdown such as this: charge $350/month for the stall. Then charge per bag for shavings ($5) then a bale of hay ($7), then charge a fee of $25 a day for administering feed, cleaning stalls, and daily turnout and brining back in. Offer the opportunity for self service, (they would just pay $25 the days they couldn’t do self service). Perhaps have an annual maintenence fee of $250 for general maintenence, (similar to a gym membership).

Would that be so unreasonable?[/QUOTE]

350 for a stall
750 for fee, stalls turn out ($25/day)
30 for shavings ~ 6 a week depending on turn out and that’s LOW if they are in
Plus hay
Plus a general maintenance

I don’t think that’s a good business plan for horses. I’m in the Indianapolis area and that is more than the nice A barns.

[Pennywell_Bay]

[QUOTE=HorseCzar;8282090]
This has been some absolutely great discussions. I wish I could reply to each one, but everyone has said some excellent replies.

I do have a proposal and would be curious as to what people thought.

A breakdown such as this: charge $350/month for the stall. Then charge per bag for shavings ($5) then a bale of hay ($7), then charge a fee of $25 a day for administering feed, cleaning stalls, and daily turnout and brining back in. Offer the opportunity for self service, (they would just pay $25 the days they couldn’t do self service). Perhaps have an annual maintenence fee of $250 for general maintenence, (similar to a gym membership).

Would that be so unreasonable?[/QUOTE]

Yes. Stall and feed alone on yours is $1000. In my area (Indianapolis) that is more than nice A barns. On the coast $1000 is closer to the norm for top facilities.

[spotmenow]

[QUOTE=WannabeDQ;8281599]

I don’t see how boarding alone could ever be a successful business. Maybe the one exception would be a retiree place where they all live out mostly?[/QUOTE]

Except for saving on shavings, having horses live outside is not really much cheaper than stalling them IF you maintain turnout areas, run-in sheds, and pastures properly. Not to mention the labor involved in separating them for graining, either haying several times a day from square bales or buying and properly storing QUALITY roundbales (hard to find/store properly/move). And of course, you are still maintaining the actual facility, including riding arenas, barn for tack up/tack storage, wash stall, etc. Plus, in my experience the older horses require more care and specialized feeds/feedings, not less due to their teeth falling out as they age. So, even boarding retirees isn’t very profitable unless you have A LOT of pasture, a lot of free time, and live in an area of the country where property taxes/insurance aren’t outrageous and the climate allows for pasture most of the year (ie. NOT NYS ;)).

Good thread…glad it hasn’t devolved into the typical BO vs. boarder snarkfest about who is making out better on the boarding deal. Instead, I think the point of this thread is that nationwide urban sprawl, coupled with inflation, is pricing a lot of people out of horse ownership. Another byproduct of the shrinking middle class.

[onthebit]

[QUOTE=WannabeDQ;8281599]
My friend is a trainer and barn owner. She keeps her boarding rates low to attract customers and then makes her money on lessons, shows, training, commissions, etc. If she raised her prices on board to make more profit, she would alienate a lot of potential clients. She has been in business for 15+ years now and this business model works well for her.

I don’t see how boarding alone could ever be a successful business. Maybe the one exception would be a retiree place where they all live out mostly?[/QUOTE]

I board retirees and my infrastructure costs aren’t really any lower, just spent in different areas. Since I needed more land we had to buy more land. Then I had to fence all of that acreage. I have six+ MILES of 4-board, wood fencing. At about $7 per foot we have literally hundreds of thousands in fencing alone. We still have three barns, we have large run-in sheds in every pasture, we have a couple of miles of water lines, we had to run electricity ($$$), etc. So what I didn’t spend on an indoor arena I certainly spent in other areas. My labor costs are still high. The horses are fed twice a day, they are blanketed as needed in the winter, we do all of the holding for every vet and farrier appointment. Someone has to sort through all of those blankets at the end of the season and get them cleaned and repaired. Someone has to groom the horses, doctor any wounds, communicate with clients (this takes almost as much of my time as hands-on horse care), etc. We still have to purchase feed (custom designed by my nutritionist hubby with the vit/mineral profile balanced to our grass and hay tests), purchase hay, buy and maintain tractors, bushhogs, manure spreaders, sprayers, buy and spread fertilizer and grass seed each year, etc. We spend 1,000s of dollars just on grass seed and fertilizer every year. Not to mention that we find as horses age they need more care, better feed, better hay, etc.

Can pasture boarding retirees be done cheaply? Sure, but compromises will be made on the facilities and their maintenance and their care. Pasture board done well isn’t any cheaper than stall board, at least not the way we approach pasture board. Which is why I kind of rolled my eyes when someone up the thread mentioned pasture board with a reserved stall. Well, someone still has to build the stall, maintain the barn it is in, pay the taxes on the additional infrastructure, all so it can be there on the rare occasion you might decide you want to use it. As I mentioned we did build three barns, however even with that we don’t have a stall available for every pasture boarder, although we always have some stalls available in the event of illness, injury, etc. I can’t afford to build, maintain, insure and pay taxes on infrastructure that isn’t being used every day.

[TrotTrotPumpkn]

The problem with outdoor board for a boarding barn, vs someone like me at home is that I have total control over when they get on grass vs. dry lot. A boarder would probably b*tch that they are on dry lot so much, but I do that so I have nice grass and they don’t explode (my mini is a bit on the fat side to put it lightly). Also, I have one horse turned out with a mini donk, and donkey on 2.5 acres. I know before I even have one more horse I need to fence in another two acres and build another shelter if I want to keep my grass, even though they are only on pasture 8 hours a day.

Using my model for 30 horses I would need over sixty acres of pasture. $15,000 an acre. Hypothetically, I just spent around $900,000 on turnout (BEFORE fencing) for pasture board prices per month. Or I guess I could move further out into the country and probably spend half on land, but still…

OP, I don’t mind supplying my own hay (I don’t pay $7 a bale) but how do I know you are feeding MY good hay? How do I know that some other boarder isn’t stealing my hay? How do we keep it all separate? I used to supply shavings and grain, fly spray, wormer, etc. when I boarded at a private barn, but they still supplied the hay (they put up their own and we were expected to help bale it and stack it).

Oops, sorry, I was posting at the same time as OntheBit, so I’m a bit redundant.

You know what I keep thinking. Operating a nice dog boarding and training facility is probably the way to go…

[airhorse]

What does it cost per day to board a dog? Our most basic is $25 to $30 per night in our area.

How anyone thinks 1K per month for boarding is unreasonable is beyond me. A decent facility with 20 acres is going to set you back well over 1M in this area (west of Chicago) and if you have to build, forget about it.

We looked at a 30 stall facility near us, even full we were having to put in 10K per month of our own money just to break even at $600 for boarding.

Just wait until horses get kicked out of AG zoning and full under commercial zoning. 1K won’t even come close.

[airhorse]

And how many places are still “getting by” without commercial insurance.

[Midwesterner]

So, as my username suggests, I am in the Midwest.

At my last barn - which had top of the line amenities in every imaginable way, and VERY private, I paid $500/month for full care board…though new boarders that came in after me were charged $650. When that barn closed, I moved to my current barn - MUCH more low key, still very private, but no more arenas, etc - and pay $325/month for full care.

I have also been self care, so I can quite accurately, almost to the penny, calculate out that my horse costs the barn owners around $125/month in hay, grain, and bedding. So, for my previous barn, that left $375 to cover things like improvements, insurance, etc. My current barn, that leaves $200/mo for those other items. At both barns, though, turnout has been at least 12 - 15 hours per day…more depending on the season (awesome spring and fall weather will sometimes mean they are out for days at a time - only brought in to be fed). Also, at both barns, the BOs do all of the work themselves - no one is hired in to clean stalls or do repairs.

I asked my current BO about this issue, and her input was that for them, boarding horses pays for all of the expenses of having her own horses - which includes maintenance and repair, insurance, taxes, increased mortgage (meaning they have a higher mortgage because they have so much land, as opposed to someone just owning a home and minimal land), etc. I asked her what would happen if one of them got laid up and couldn’t do the manual labor, and she said that they have an emergency fund, with funds coming in from the $$ they make off boarding, to cover just such a scenario. But, she underlined, that boarding horses isn’t a “get rich” type of scheme, or really one that they expect to make any sort of sustainable income (the BOs both have jobs outside of the home).

Edited to add: my current barn grows all of their own hay as well. They fertilize and cut it all themselves, and then barter with a local farmer to do the baling. As we only have room for 6 horses, and each cutting nets them close to 450 bales on a bad growing year, they are more than able to trade hay for labor.

[Sparky_Boy]

[QUOTE=airhorse;8282426]
And how many places are still “getting by” without commercial insurance.[/QUOTE]

That’s just dumb. Insurance is a must.

[BuddyRoo]

[QUOTE=HorseCzar;8282090]

A breakdown such as this: charge $350/month for the stall. Then charge per bag for shavings ($5) then a bale of hay ($7), then charge a fee of $25 a day for administering feed, cleaning stalls, and daily turnout and brining back in. Offer the opportunity for self service, (they would just pay $25 the days they couldn’t do self service). Perhaps have an annual maintenence fee of $250 for general maintenence, (similar to a gym membership).

Would that be so unreasonable?[/QUOTE]

Way too complicated and difficult to track/prove. If I’m boarding, I want one number, not a variable rate that I have to try to keep track of. Unless you essentially “sell” hay and shavings to someone and give them a space to keep their stuff and lock it up and all of your stuff is locked up as well, how do you know how many bales or bags are being used?

And going the partial self care route is, IMHO, a recipe for disaster. All sorts of people SAY they’ll clean their stall, turn out their horse, feed and water…and then they don’t show up. You may not always know if they didn’t show up for a day til you see their horse is still in turnout or stuck in a stall with no water. I don’t think self care/partial self care is a very good business model especially if you are talking about having many horses. You are likely to end up being responsible for the care of horses that you’re not being paid to care for. (and you have to…if they’re on your property, you’re ultimately responsible.)

I have done a co op sitch where it was 100% self care, buy your own feed, hay and shavings. It worked well but there were only 3 families and 7 horses between us.

[BuddyRoo]

@spotmenow;8282336

Except for saving on shavings, having horses live outside is not really much cheaper than stalling them IF you maintain turnout areas, run-in sheds, and pastures properly. Not to mention the labor involved in separating them for graining, either haying several times a day from square bales or buying and properly storing QUALITY roundbales (hard to find/store properly/move). And of course, you are still maintaining the actual facility, including riding arenas, barn for tack up/tack storage, wash stall, etc. Plus, in my experience the older horses require more care and specialized feeds/feedings, not less due to their teeth falling out as they age. So, even boarding retirees isn’t very profitable unless you have A LOT of pasture, a lot of free time, and live in an area of the country where property taxes/insurance aren’t outrageous and the climate allows for pasture most of the year (ie. NOT NYS ;)).

Totally agree with all of this with regards to outdoor board AND older horses. At my current barn, outdoor board is 100 less/mo than indoor. The outdoor horses have roundbales, are fed their grain/meds in feedbags (works great!) and we have access to all of the amenities. That’s why board is what it is. The outdoor horses aren’t just turned out and feral…they are still receiving care.

I also have a deal with my BO for my old lady where I’m going reserving a stall for winter and use it only if Miss Mare is having challenges with the cold (our first time back in real winter for a few years) or in really crappy weather. If I put her in, I’m am responsible for all that goes along with it. I’m just paying to reserve the space.

I don’t think that outdoor board should be considered the “cheap” option.