Why use this equipment?

[Cielo_Azure]

OK, I am only posting this video because I was kind of surprised to see this method used for training dressage driving. I hate to diss anyone. But…there is a driver and trainer (the trainer seems very sure of herself in her vocal ques). But notice the draw reins (I think they are attached to the regular reins) but they might be called something else. That is, I don’t use such things, so I may have the terms slightly wrong but it looks like twine going from the bit to the girth and up through the reins and attached to the reins midpoint). Now note that the head actually under the vertical. At points, the horse is clearly fighting it and yet the trainer is remarking on how well she is going now with this set up. Anyone have a clue what the trainer is trying to do or do you use this set-up in training? I may just be blowing this out of proportion in my own mind. But it seems…rather harsh in my book and was kind of curious how many people would use this technique to get the head tucked down that low. Also, if you used such a technique, why would you post it on youtube? I am confused about the point of the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqxKyOBSSWU

Thoughts?

The title is: DONA AND RILEY WORKING ON THROUGH THE BRIDLE without any additional text.

[tandem4u]

That is the driving version of a german martingale. It works just as you said, from a point of contact on the rein through the bit shank & down between the legs.

I don’t use them, but they are used quite a bit as a short cut to get the horse into a frame of some sorts.

The video is not posted by the trainer, but by the horse owner.
Robert

[Thomas_1]

Thoughts?

Gadgets and quick fixes… grrrrr… hate them!

Just train the bloody horse and get it fit and drive it well!!!

[nightmoves]

The only time I use a German Martingale is when taking a horse out on the trail that can be a bit silly and strong. Gives a little more control, keeps the horse from throwing his head and bolting. Other than that I don’t believe I would have a use for it. I’ve only used it riding NOT driving.

[MySparrow]

In their book Carriage Driving, Heike Bean and Sarah Blanchard discuss the use of sliding or German sidereins, attached not to the rein but to the saddle near the tugs. They say:

“They are the most useful form of auxiiliary reins, as they very effectively help the horse find his balance, accept the bit, and stretch his topline correctly – without being restricted by the rigidity of standing sidereins, and without being bothered by the uneven motions of a driver’s hand.” (p. 84)

I have a set of German sidereins and use them occasionally when longing. I tried them once while driving, and found that they added an extra layer of contact that distracted me and the horse. However, I believe they might be considered useful for a horse that consistently goes above the bit and has developed the lower neck muscles to prove it, which seems to be the case in this video.

[Thomas_1]

Over here we call those Market Harboroughs

They’re named after a town famous for horse training. They’re used traditionally for VERY strong horses when show jumping and in my ancient books they come with a health warning “NOT TO BE USED BY INEXPERIENCED RIDERS”

In my opinion it’s got no place in carriage driving!

[Nojacketrequired]

From a riding perspective only, so this may not apply in driving at all…sliding side reins are different from the German martingale thing she has on here.

Again in riding, may be different in driving, the sliding side reins are set so that the horse has freedom when he reaches and relaxes into the frame that the trainer desires. They are attached at two points on the surcingle so they make a triangle shape with the bit being the apex. The trainer has no control of them once they are set conrrectly. When the head comes up again, the bit comes into contact with the mouth and (usually) quickly realize it is much more comfortable to continue on in a longer, lower frame. This will release all of those under neck muscles and begin to stretch the horse along the topline, making it easier for him to carry himself and reach for the bit. This all takes months of course.

IMO, sliding side reins while longeing are quite useful in teaching a horse that tends to throw his head and brace his underneck against the bit, as all he has to work against is himself. He learns that if he relaxes those under neck muscles and carries his head and neck stretched and lower, the side reins go away entirely.

The German Martingale is actually attached to the rein, so that the driver has control of how the rein affects the bit at all times to ask for a certain frame from the horse.

The German Martingale is a device that works on leverage to induce the horse to give in his mouth, but the leverage is controlled by the rider. Anyone who uses one of these as a training device has to have VERY good hands, and lots of forward, IMO. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a german martingale create any relaxation of those undermuscles that didn’t result from the constriction of poll/jaw muscles. From what I’ve seen, they don’t seem to teach many horses anything long-term once taken off. The horse will often revert to being high headed or will start to go WAY behind the vertical which is even worse IMO.

Again, where driving is concerned I could be full of crap, but where riding dressage is concerned, this has been my experience.

NJR

[RidesAHaflinger]

Please folks…

The video is of someone who posts to this forum fairly often. She’s an accomplished carriage driver and competitor. Perhaps you could contact her privately to discuss your concerns about her equipment/methods choices. I know I would prefer that myself rather than unwittingly becoming the subject of an open discussion here. In fact it gives me the :eek::eek::eek:'s to think that someone might find a video of me and post it here for analysis without discussing it with me first.

[Cielo_Azure]

I don’t have a clue who it is but…if you post something to youtube, you open yourself and your training methods to critical examination. Yes, that can be public. Remember, you have the full option to only share with friends when you post on youtube. This person chose to publish it to the world. If anyone reads FUGLY horse, which I don’t, they know that can bite you in the hind end.

My post was not meant to diss anyone, frankly. It was to try to understand. My initial reaction was to be put off but I was willing to have an open mind. Having read all the responses, I am still bothered though. I am bothered that these techniques are used to train our horses in dressage (probably pretty frequently -even at clinics) and yet we just had this huge dissing of Mr. Dover because horror of horror people might get the impression that horses are being locked in frame and tied in. NO ONE ever does that in driven dressage or at ADS type shows, do they? oh…only not in the show ring? But it is ok behind the barn or at clinics and posted on youtube? See, I don’t believe that you can have it both ways. It makes be believe that maybe what Mr. Dover was writing has some truth to it and yes, I am perturbed by that notion. I really hadn’t thought of that before I saw the video.

There have been WAY too many examples on this board of people posting videos that they have questions about, etc. Sometimes, like the little mini posting recently, what is shown is downright awful. Sometimes, stuff does need some light on it. Just because someone is a member, does not make them exempt from critical analysis -especially as I, at least, couldn’t tell you who it is or what their sign name is.

The person can pull the video anytime they like and no one will see it again.

[49_er]

That is me. I have owned this Connemara mare since she was a two year old. She is now 10. She has been a VERY difficult pony to train. For the first year or so she would leap and do caprioles in the cart. She would not stand until just the last year or so. She has an advanced CD HORSE walk. She was started by Tom Simmons and then Judy Howard got her a little safer to drive a year or so later. Olof Larsson was helping me with the horse I was then showing in CDE’s and he drove Rylee some for me. He liked her. I still have the picture in my mind of taking her to Live Oak for a lesson and it taking Olof and 2 helpers to get her hooked and then he got in on the fly. She is extremely forward, but fortunately not a bolter. She used to be pretty spooky and always shied to the left. I just drove her in the Gothe Forest and on the dirt roads where I live for several years, never dreaming she would make it to a CD. I made a lot of compromises with her training as she was a fighter. I figured it was a way to save my life. <VBG>
When she was six the Polish trainer at Blackprong, Irik Szwajkosc, took an interest in her when I did a cones clinic with him. She started to come around with him. I showed her Prelim and Intermediate that first winter. From the very beginning she was a force to reckon with in the hazards. She loves cones and hazards. Irik left that first spring and Ellen Epstein then helped me and the mare progressed…slowly as she realized compromise was no longer part of her vocabulary. I found a dressage rider to school her once or twice a week that next summer. She is the one on the video which was filmed by a friend and posted so I could see it. The dressage trainer has her gold, silver and bronze medallions if that means anything. She was riding her in draw reins for the reason My Sparrow mentioned. When we went to transfer that to driving, I was more comfortable using a German martingale than draw reins. (I come from a western background). It was only done for a month or so and then we did not seem to need it. Ellen and Sarah Schmidt helped me again that next winter. The mare is now much more evenly on the bit, a fat black soft rubber mullen with liverpool cheeks, accepts contact and her dressage scores have come down from 70’s and 80’s to 50’s and 60’s with European judges. Chester Weber gave her a 38 in Nov. which is the best score we have gotten. She is awesome in the hazards and not bad in cones and for that I use a Nathe soft rubber dogbone snaffle. She was second at Lexington and third at Aiken this fall. She has turned into a totally fun pony to drive and compete. It is now her turn to pay me back for all the suffering and agony she put me thru.

ps: No flames, please. I was amazed when I saw I was the subject of this posting. I would have responded sooner, but I am still having problems logging onto the new COTH.

[Nojacketrequired]

No flames from me. I was commenting on the equipment, and my experiences with it under saddle, not on the video.

I was however unaware that you can use draw reins in driving? Seriously?I can’t even imagine.

NJR

[tandem4u]

Ditto, it’s a training device! Whats the problem??? Use them or don’t.
I recall seeing the horse in Aiken once you said that! I was helping at hazard 3 she looked really solid!
Robert

[pdq]

Gad! That’s frick’n rollkur!!!

What the H#&& is that driver thinking?? Does she watch this video and say “my horse looks puuuurty!”??? Is she even aware??

:dead::dead::dead::dead:

Hopefully if she posts here she’ll get a clue. She is being mis-trained and so is her horse!

Rollkur in driving. Not new (I’ve seen it used years ago), but never, ever right.

[pdq]

[QUOTE=RidesAHaflinger;4626191]
The video is of someone who posts to this forum fairly often. She’s an accomplished carriage driver and competitor. [/QUOTE]

Maybe reading this: “she’s using rollkur” would give her a clue.

She needs one.:dead:

[MySparrow]

[QUOTE=pdq;4627566]
Maybe reading this: “she’s using rollkur” would give her a clue.

She needs one.:dead:[/QUOTE]

Not seeing rollkur here. The pony is a tiny bit behind the vertical but is making a lot of decisions about carrying herself. While I agree with Jill’s observation that it’s an unfortunate image so soon after Robert Dover’s “strapped into a frame” comment, I certainly don’t see it as abusive, and I doubt that it was used more than briefly to help the pony understand what was wanted.

One of the things I like about the Driving forum is that most of us do try to avoid bashing. I hope we can retain that spirit.

[Nojacketrequired]

That is nowhere NEAR Rolkur. Please believe that from someone who has been involved in ridden dressage for years.

NJR