I did read your post and do not believe I misunderstood at all. I do not feel that I bear the responsibility alone as a breeder as to pay attention and/or track bloodlines. Like you I am both a rider and a breeder. I have a very good idea from both perspectives what I want to breed. I am the only test dummy here, a vet by profession and as a result am acutely aware of what an ammy mount is. As a result of my upbringing I use bloodlines and knowledge of type to make my choices in the breeding shed. I feel strongly that riders do ALSO bear a responsibility to know what they are buying and why, that includes bloodlines. If they fore sake their option to learn, they will increase their risk of making poor choices. Unfortunately it’s usually the horse that loses, not the rider, in the end.
I am glad to have started an educational thread:)
A few thoughts regarding some things folks have posted here. I totally agree that at first when WBs made it to the US anything “WB” sparkled and therefore had $$ price tag…even if it was sh*t. I also agree that has changed dramatically. Now, for the most part, we are breeding correctly and producing top WBs (be it Hanoverian, Oldenburg, Dutch, etc.). I do think more and more folks have basic knowledge of at least the big blood line names (Donnerhall, Sandro Hit, etc.). However, after spending a fair amount of time in Germany we still have a way to go! Over there when I walk through many barns the stalls have not just a name plate, but a name plate WITH PEDIGREE…just amazing. Riders there know what they like, know what they are buying and go to breed shows. Maybe another 20 years we will catch up:)
I too agree knowing the pedigree of geldings is important for education. I am that annoying person at a horse show that if I see a horse I like I ask the rider what the breeding is. Most times they know at least the first generation. Now all my rider friends do the same as I have ignited a curiosity in them to learn about blood lines. it is a start…
I also agree that for the riders that don’t know or don’t care about blood lines it is up to breeders to continue to educate themselves to produce a great “product” for them.
It is true a great competition horse is a great competition horse. If Totilas’s pedigree was unknown he would still make a great sport horse and command a price tag. However, it would not make him a great breeding stallion. In that vein, I found it interesting in the Hanoverian Licensing thread the discussion that there IS potentially a difference between a great breeding stallion and a great sport stallion. Very interesting concept that I had not fully thought about before.
Lastly, regarding breeding for ammy market. I too breed for the ammy market , but don’t consider that I am not breeding for top sport or inferior horses. For me that means choosing stallions that are know for great temperaments (ie; I tend to stay away from the Jazz’s of the world, but completely see their importance in the breeding shed), stallions that don’t necessarily throw the hugest of gaits but certainly correct and solid, stallions that don’t throw huge in size.
I dream on day of being one of those folks that can discuss blood lines like a baseball fanatic can discuss player stats…or like Viney on tb pedigrees:)
Lastly, regarding breeding for ammy market. I too breed for the ammy market , but don’t consider that I am not breeding for top sport or inferior horses.
A horse that can carry an ammy, work with an ammy, flourish under an ammy and let that ammy grow as a rider is far from inferior. To do this bloodlines are key imo but registry is NOT (well not necessarily). I breed for the top of the sport with the ammy in mind so I don’t have any expectations of international dressage but International FEI CDE competitor or Local/Regional/National FEI level dressage…yeah you betcha :winkgrin:
You see I don’t feel an obligation to the rider as far as my knowing or understanding bloodlines. I see it as my responsibility to the horse and to the breed that I plan to produce in order to maximize it’s potential of getting a great home but somewhere along the way I believe the ave. joe amateur rider needs to start taking responsibility that is usually overlooked or handed over to someone else. Of course that is me and I don’t sell tons of horses and never intend to…my first and foremost market is me and my kids.
Completely understand. Yes, very true there are many breeds that can carry the ammy rider. And many different attractions for different people. I have a friend that just loves a Haflinger and competing and showing with them.
I also agree that the responsibility is ultimately to the horse and to the breed (of your choosing). However, and I am sure you agree, it doesn’t hurt to educate the riders along the lines as well:)
[QUOTE=exvet;7271414]
Lastly, regarding breeding for ammy market. I too breed for the ammy market , but don’t consider that I am not breeding for top sport or inferior horses.
A horse that can carry an ammy, work with an ammy, flourish under an ammy and let that ammy grow as a rider is far from inferior. To do this bloodlines are key imo but registry is NOT (well not necessarily). I breed for the top of the sport with the ammy in mind so I don’t have any expectations of international dressage but International FEI CDE competitor or Local/Regional/National FEI level dressage…yeah you betcha :winkgrin:
You see I don’t feel an obligation to the rider as far as my knowing or understanding bloodlines. I see it as my responsibility to the horse and to the breed that I plan to produce in order to maximize it’s potential of getting a great home but somewhere along the way I believe the ave. joe amateur rider needs to start taking responsibility that is usually overlooked or handed over to someone else. Of course that is me and I don’t sell tons of horses and never intend to…my first and foremost market is me and my kids.[/QUOTE]
What I’m amazed at, is that the people who don’t care are the ones associated with english equestrian sports. I (wrongly) assumed that if anyone didn’t care it would be cowboys. I watched a friend compete at the World American Paint Horse Association Championships show a few weeks ago here in Ft.Worth and watched a few other events as well. At the end of each class when they were giving the awards for the class, they told who the horse and rider were and where they were from, who the sire and dam were, and who the breeder/farm was. I was stunned.
The difference here is that this show was essentially a breed show for APHA where as English discipline shows aren’t ‘for’ one specific breed.
So, my question is: Are there any Hanoverian “only” classes, or “only” Oldenburg classes, or “only” Trakehner, etc… (where ONLY specific breed registered horses are allowed to compete in those classes) available anywhere in the country? If not maybe AHS, GOV, USSHBA, etc… could sponsor classes like this with a stipulation tied to the sponsorship that the breeding and breeder be listed in the program and announced upon either entering or exiting the ring.
Breed and bloodlines need to be made important so others will start to understand.
The phenomenon here is “reversion to the mean”:
Reversion to the mean, also called regression to the mean, is the statistical phenomenon stating that the greater the deviation of a random variate from its mean, the greater the probability that the next measured variate will deviate less far. In other words, an extreme event is likely to be followed by a less extreme event.
Statistics is the mathematics of biology (and hence genetics). The better the parents, the more difficult it will be to produce a foal who is markedly better than both.
So, my question is: Are there any Hanoverian “only” classes, or “only” Oldenburg classes, or “only” Trakehner, etc… (where ONLY specific breed registered horses are allowed to compete in those classes) available anywhere in the country? If not maybe AHS, GOV, USSHBA, etc… could sponsor classes like this with a stipulation tied to the sponsorship that the breeding and breeder be listed in the program and announced upon either entering or exiting the ring.
There are Breeders shows/inspections but I really don’t think there is a point to have registry shows. If you want to do dressage, go to a dressage show. But lots of dressage and jumping shows do show the pedigree. And to be honest most serious riders know their pedigrees because they buy and ride a lot of horses.
It is the young riders or the ammy that is usually not sure. They just want a horse that does the job for them. Is that an issue? I don’t think so as most of these people are buying according to suitability and not bringing up young horses. Let’s face it, if the horse is unsuitable/suitable for them, should the pedigree matter?
I know what type of car I like to drive but I don’t have to know how it was designed, that is for the engineer. If I get to buy more than one car, I will learn the make I like so I can get another one. I think the breeders of the horses are more important for riders to know, so they know where to shop to find the next one.
The details of bloodlines take a lifetime to understand. They can like a certain stallion but that really isn’t what makes a good horse. Even if you memorize the whole pedigree it doesn’t mean you understand. Let the engineers worry about it. 
Mnay USDF breed shows(dressage) have the IBC classes—individual breed. Where the entrant has to produce or be verified by the indicated registry ie: HAnoverian, oldenburg, etc.
[QUOTE=Marydell;7271696]
Mnay USDF breed shows(dressage) have the IBC classes—individual breed. Where the entrant has to produce or be verified by the indicated registry ie: HAnoverian, oldenburg, etc.[/QUOTE]
Are bloodlines listed and announced?
This reminds me of what my Grandpa use to say, he was an old time horseman, in the calvary etc. When ever we would go to breed he would always say “before you breed any two horses make sure you wouldn’t mind riding the grandparents because that might be what you get!”
An aside, He also drove our trailer to the shows, and if anyone went off course, we all had to go home! I remember 1 girl did so once, she was on our black list for years, but no one ever did it again! lol
When ever we would go to breed he would always say “before you breed any two horses make sure you wouldn’t mind riding the grandparents because that might be what you get!”
Wise man! I have seen this many times over, ie. offspring resembled one grandparent almost to a “T”. I consider myself lucky because in the case of my little herd, I have either owned and competed or handled the actual grandparents or very close relatives. I think this factor is all too often forgotten or assumed that it’s ‘far enough back’ that the possibility is minor.
[QUOTE=back in the saddle;7271796]
Are bloodlines listed and announced?[/QUOTE]
Absolutely.
[QUOTE=back in the saddle;7271796]
Are bloodlines listed and announced?[/QUOTE]
Some of our bigger shows (riding, not DSHB) have show programs with bloodlines in the back - but you have to BUY the program. I sometimes do buy it just to look up bloodlines as I watch the horses. Nice thing - sometimes they list the dam and damsire! But I am saddened to see blanks - which means the owner didn’t list the breeding on the entry form. Announcers at the bigger shows are announcing registry and sire, which is helpful. I really enjoy hearing the registry too - surprising how many non-Warmbloods are showing and doing well. But the registry information isn’t always helpful - for example, Oldenburg could be GOV or NA. They often just say “Friesian” when it is actually a Friesian Heritage Horse. Or some people do just list Warmblood - so what is that? But it is nice to at least have some hints, so I really enjoy when the show has an announcer - or a program with that kind of information!
Blume, I am really digging your analogy with the puggles. For people who are newer to breeding, or people who are interested in learning more about breeding (like me!) the F1/F2 example you provided was absolutely perfect.
