Why we care about blood lines

[Blume_Farm]

In a few threads recently there have been comments disregarding the importance of understanding blood lines. Comments such as “I don’t care about names on a piece of paper” or “my stallion is an X breed, why can’t he be accepting into certain WB breeding registries”. I was thinking how to respond to this with an educational purpose as I think this is a common thought for folks new to breeding. I know I certainly thought that way when I started and just got lucky with my choice:) I chose Rotspon 13 years ago, not because I understood the crossing of R and D lines, pedigrees, etc. but because he was stunning to me, and dare I say…black!

I am a small animal vet and see a LOT of puggles. They are a perfect example of why to understand the genetics behind the animal, and not just go on pheotype (ie; what they look like). When you mix a beagle and a pug to make a puggle you get pretty consistent results…a dog with a curled tail, always the color of a pug (black or tan), beagle ears, mid sized snout, moderately buggy eyes. However, you breed a puggle to a puggle and all sorts of things are going to come out! Beagles, pugs, almost beagle, almost pugs. The F1 generation is pretty darn consistent, the F2 generation not at all. IF someone wanted to develop a true puggle breed they would have to keep the F2 generation that had the “type” they wanted and cull the rest (in this fictional scenario hopefully that just means spay and neuter:)). Keep breeding the ones that had the “type” and over generations would develop a new “breed”.

Knowing generations of blood lines helps you determine and maintain that type…in the horse case I am talking about is the Modern Warmblood (be it Hanoverian, Oldenburg, Dutch. etc.). A breed that has been managed by type and athlete ability for the purpose of dressage, jumping, eventing and driving.

If you do not understand the genetics (ie; blood lines) you are working with your offspring can be that F2 generation of puggles described above. For example, breeding an Appendix to a WB could result in a QH offspring…EVEN if the Appendix parent in question is uphill, correct, etc. Now if the Appendix BREED is developed into a consistent type for generations you could begin to rely on the predictability of the offspring.

I do not make these comments to AT ALL make disparaging remarks to posters. I make them to try to explain how breeding and genetics really works. Why you should care about those names on a piece of paper and why breed registries are so restrictive. It is NOT to be exclusionary just for sake of it, but for the sheer purpose of developing and maintaining certain qualities as consistently as nature allows.

[stoicfish]

I believe it is a lack of understanding of genetics, a gap between the act of breeding and the actual mechanics of what is happening. And that is a tough one since not everyone can go to University for 4 years before they start breeding,. However many older people got the picture of how it would go without the understanding of the science behind it. I can fly plane even if I have never heard of Bernoulli’s principle, but it makes it harder to design a better plane if you need to do it by trial and error instead of starting with the principal.
There are so many factors to genetics that it is overwhelming but the basis is that you get what your parents had and they got it from their parents and so on. A horse, genetically, is a bundle of information given to him by his relatives. So yea, the more horses that were geared towards a purpose successfully in the pedigree, the higher chance you are going to get what you want. Same principle with nicks, two sets working well together.
I find the puggle story interesting and a great example. Obviously, the F1 are a result of many dominate traits of both breeds but the F2 are a recombination and you are left with random recessive traits for many features.

I have an Anglo Trak mare and I bet if I bred her 30 times I would see a much higher variation in offspring that a full Trak.
But and here is the debatable part, if her Tb side brings some really positive features to the bundle, and so does the Trak side, are you going to get a good result even if they are different? Some stallions are very consistent in type but some are very consistent in talent “They all look a bit different but they can all jump”.
The key being is the trait compatible (nicks well) with the population? Several threads lately have been heated over adding horses to populations that have questionable genetics, whether it is a disease or it is trait. They fail to see that F1 is not the goal of a population and it is working backwards to add negative traits even if they are “packaged” with really positive ones. The Wb breed already has those positive traits in the population.

To add there is something for breeding an F1 as a final product but the problem is, it should end with an F1 and not go on to produce “different type of puggles” F2

[Kyzteke]

Well, I suspect you are not going to get a lot of argument on this from educated breeders. Any educated experienced breeder quickly realizes that phenotype is only one part of breeding, and not even always the most important.

At the risk of encouraging everyone to go out and breed the ugliest mare they can find “just to see”, I want to reiterate that the old “best to best” theory is ok, but very simplistic and actually often not very successful at all.

My first exposure to horse breeding was via the racing world, and in that world stories abound of less than best producing better than best! La Troienne, a mare whose high production record of champions continues in her descendants even today, raced only 3 times and I don’t think she ever even hit the board.

Phar Lap, the legendary Aussie racehorse, had nothing special at all in the first few generations. But his trainer bought him because he DID have top horses “farther back.” Of course, he was a gelding, so we will never know what he would have produced, but he himself was one of the best runners the world has ever known.

And, speaking for myself. I’ve mentioned one of my mares…certain average or perhaps even below average phenotypically. But her pedigree is pretty solid (a weaker female tail line, but I’m slowing breeding that out): Weltmeyer/Batido/Bolero.

I did not breed her till she was 6, because I was so disappointed in her quality. Because of an injury as a foal, she wasn’t rideable (or sellable), so she just sat around, eating. Then circumstances of Fate (or whatever) some how conspired and my Teke stallion got loose and bred her.

I would have NEVER mated those 2 phenotypically, but surprisingly the resulting foal was pretty nice…looked alike a little palomino Weltmeyer!

This got me to thinking and so I began to breed her to better WB stallions.
Now she has produced 4 foals by 4 different sires; 3 of whom are actual WBs. All 3 have won their large inspections and been graded Gold. All 3 have scored high enough to be in the Top 10 each year of all inspected foals of that registry.

The oldest of the WB foals is now 2.5…you guys tell me what you think of her quality…https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOqb8HNvO7g (video taken right about 2 yrs of age).

Meanwhile, a fellow breeder friend of mine has a mare imported from Germany (Hohenstein/DeNiro) who is absolutely stunning. Was THE 1st or 2nd placed mare in the country in AHS at her inspection She has produced 8 foals (most by ET) by various sires…and, while her foals are certainly very, very nice, not one has been the quality of their dam.

So pedigree DOES matter. And what you see is often NOT what you will get.

As I’ve said before, if all you needed to do to produce the best is breed “best to best” any rich yokel w/enough $$ to buy top stock could do it.

That’s one reason breeders like Tesio are so interesting…they looked at pedigrees closely, used linebreeding (and sometimes inbreeding) to bring out certain traits & talents. In Tesio’s case, he was successful quite often.

So yes, you will get no argument from me…a truly savvy breeder should know the traits, characteristics etc. of ALL the horse’s in the first 5 generations.

This is one reason I value “pedigree geeks” like Viney and others on this board…they’ve done much of this and can educate ME on various lines.

[out_west]

The above are excellent posts. I do have a Ph.D in genetics and could not have stated it better. I, personally, would never breed an F1 because of the complete unpredictability. We have breed registries to help breed for certain traits desired by the organization and their breeders. Knowing the pedigree can help you know what you might get, and can help you decide what to cross based on your goals. Knowing what lines tend to produce reduces the chance of undesired traits, and increases the chance of desired traits. Of course, breeding the “best to the best” still does not guarantee anything. Why reduce your chances further?

[siegi_b]

out west - you’re so right when you talk about the lack of guarantees even given super pedigrees on the parents. That is why I will never understand why anybody would have a goal of breeding anything but top quality. Arguments such as “I don’t need a top stallion/mare because I breed for the amateur market” just don’t hold any water as far as I’m concerned.

[CHT]

I remember seeing this first hand when I was younger: A TB/Clyde mare, who was herself a decent jumper, was bred to a nice TB, thinking that it would further refine the bloodline. Instead, they got a gelding that couldn’t stay sound: Clyde height & body size, but TB legs and head. Looked like the old time drawings of the “ideal” horse, but just didn’t have enough leg strength for his massive body.

[J-Lu]

I agree with the above posts. But I wanted to comment on Stoicfish’s post. Stoicfish, I might be reading your post incorrectly, but since the Trak studbook accepts TBs and Arabians, breeding back to a “full Trak” includes the TB and Arabian bloodlines anyway. You could breed to a Trak- approved TB and still be able to predict what you get if you study the bloodlines. I find Traks interesting (I own one) because they balance the inbreeding with very specific outcrossed (and inspected) TB and Arabian blood for refining - and that’s it. Talk about a study in F1 and backcross breeding… They’re a great outcross to the other breeds. (Outcross, but similar goals in breeding programs). I think breeding requires not only a good eye but a real knowledge of statistics. That said, I do appreciate the OP’s point about breeding very different genotypes/phenotypes and the variability that ensues. I work heavily in mouse genetics, including mixed strains (breeds, if you will). Breeding for a specific goal requires knowing what the genetics of each line “brings to the table”…and a roll of the dice.

[stoicfish]

[QUOTE=J-Lu;7270176]
I agree with the above posts. But I wanted to comment on Stoicfish’s post. Stoicfish, I might be reading your post incorrectly, but since the Trak studbook accepts TBs and Arabians, breeding back to a “full Trak” includes the TB and Arabian bloodlines anyway. You could breed to a Trak- approved TB and still be able to predict what you get if you study the bloodlines. I find Traks interesting (I own one) because they balance the inbreeding with very specific outcrossed (and inspected) TB and Arabian blood for refining - and that’s it. Talk about a study in F1 and backcross breeding… They’re a great outcross to the other breeds. (Outcross, but similar goals in breeding programs). I think breeding requires not only a good eye but a real knowledge of statistics. That said, I do appreciate the OP’s point about breeding very different genotypes/phenotypes and the variability that ensues. I work heavily in mouse genetics, including mixed strains (breeds, if you will). Breeding for a specific goal requires knowing what the genetics of each line “brings to the table”…and a roll of the dice.[/QUOTE]

You are right about the Traks and how they define their breed.
However I met my mare’s dam and sire and they were not really similar horses, regardless of the papers. One was a large boned Wb and one was a tall Tb with a bit of speed. When I did breed my mare, I was going for an event type offspring, my mare’s sire has had offspring long listed for jumping and dressage in Canada. He was a Polish Trak and had very little Tb up close and just about no Arab for many gens. The point I was trying to make was that I was dealing with two very different types/abilities that my mare could have thrown. Both probably would have been good for eventing at medium levels. Turns out the foal looks mostly like his Hanoverian sire. :winkgrin: I was only breeding for one puggle as a second gen Trak x Tb x Han (with a good dose of Holst) could have lead to even more unpredictable types. I would not use her in a breeding program with goals of either a jumper or dressage horses. There would be too many variables and I might get the picture after several foals but their are more consistent types out their for breeding, that should be used for breeding.

I know Londonderry throws some very nice horses and is somewhat consistent but I am not sure that is the norm when you have a first gen cross breeding. L.C was exceptional in that aspect in how well he complimented Hanoverians. Tb’s are bred for speed and not necessarily type or jumping or dressage suitability. While some tb lines are more successful at sport than others, it is still a low correlation between pedigree and jumping dressage ability and studying their pedigree might not help (especially NA Tb’s).

Stallions like A Fine Romance that are older and have proven themselves could be a good cross as you should have info on what you might get as a sport horse sire.

[About_Time1]

This is a great thread. Please keep it going. I’m learning a lot!

[Canterbury_Court]

F1 crosses can be great for product (think Irish hunters for example). As producers they are generally 50/50.
I like seeing 3/8-5/8 thoroughbred, arab, anglo-arab, or “lighter sporthorse” breeds such as Selle Fraincais or Trakhener in my horses pedigree but nothing closer than three generations back. breeding horses is hard enough without deliberately increasing your chances of “culls.”
I have a mare who has produced 8 premium foals with the same stud. a couple would have been stallion candidates but she does not have much depth in her pedigree and what she produces, while all good, is all over the place in terms of type. Studs are even riskier than mares in term of their ability to produce good riding horses - much more investment to get that first foal on the ground.

[exvet]

Solidifying ‘type’ and knowing bloodlines inside and out certainly isn’t only unique or pertinent to the breeding of warmbloods. A few years ago we (the welsh breeders) lost an individual who could quote bible and verse on just about every section of Welsh and their bloodlines, who was known for producing what, what was a good nick, etc. It’s people like these who are invaluable and not only provide a wealth of information to but are integral in mentoring ‘new’ breeders. So while breeds may not have a similar approval process as the sport type registries there is still a process which if one taps into can often lessen the ‘surprises’.

I too have been watching the threads that I suspect fueled this one. I personally have had a couple of really, really nice F1 crosses over the years and also have seen many, many, many :eek: Breeding type to type is as important imo as knowing bloodlines inside and out. I am very careful in selecting what I breed be purebred or a F1 cross and then especially if I use that F1 cross to breed back. Case in point, I breed Welsh Cobs. One of my best mares is a Welsh x Morgan mare. I know the morgan lines and breeding as well as I know the Welsh lines. What I produced was as nice as I was hoping (expecting) and I feel that a lot of that had to do with more than just dumb luck.

And please be aware that not all of us yearn to have ‘our’ breed accepted into the warmblood registries circle of approval. I’ve played the game and gone down that path. It has merit and makes much sense; but, what I don’t understand is the ‘need’ for those to try to change their own breed. I’m all for breeding within a breed to set or maximize specific traits that tend to make performing a specific job easier but standards are set for a reason and breeds are developed for a reason. While I think breeds per se could benefit from a similar process that the sport horse registries follow, I have no desire to change my breed to suit another. I mean what’s the point? I work hard to breed a sport type within my breed but I still want it to look like that breed and don’t find it at all complimentary for someone to think it looks like something else

Now having said that I do focus very much so on performance and achieving a program that not only speaks to that but proves itself out over and over again. To do so requires that ‘the breeder’ makes decisions on far more than ‘wouldn’t this horse crossed on this one make a pretty picture…?’ For this reason alone I also don’t ‘get’ the attitude that if it’s a gelding and therefore has no DIRECT bearing on the future gene pool, bloodlines don’t matter. They are still offspring of specific bloodlines and are that ‘proof’ I look to for things like consistency, rideability, trainability, yada yada yada…so in the end I do care both from a breeder’s perspective and as a rider’s perspective what a gelding’s bloodlines are. I learned a long time ago growing up milking cows and being groomed to know the business that paying attention to performance predictors can make or break you…I wish the horse industry had more of them and until they do, bloodlines and performance records (both in the breeding shed and in sport) are where I will focus my time.

[siegi_b]

Dear Exvet -

your reply should be framed and hung on every breeder’s wall!
Thank you!!

[Dressagelvr]

What a great thread, I hope it gets many reads. I can’t say it better. My only comment is that if more people had this basic understanding, there would be far fewer unwanted horses.

[stoicfish]

A cross post

Just for clarification, I wouldn’t say the 12k foal is uncommon. I know of several foals that have gone for 12k plus in the last two years but they were very well bred dressage foals. What I was getting at is the market has become more discerning of bloodlines and product so just having a WB foal is not going to warrant higher prices anymore. You want 6k plus, you better have the product.

I wrote that in the foal auction thread. I know some breeders in my area that for years got good prices (well above average horse prices) for their Wb’s because they were Wb’s. The game changer is that Wb’s are more common now and not a rarity so now people are getting more educated about bloodlines and what they are looking for. If you want the good prices now, your product has to be of better quality. In bloodlines and type/ability. Has anyone else experienced this where some breeders are still expecting higher prices for average or below average horses because they are selling “fancy Wb’s”?
I think for many years those prices were NOT an incentive for people to breed better horses.

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=stoicfish;7270736]
A cross post

I wrote that in the foal auction thread. I know some breeders in my area that for years got good prices (well above average horse prices) for their Wb’s because they were Wb’s. The game changer is that Wb’s are more common now and not a rarity so now people are getting more educated about bloodlines and what they are looking for. If you want the good prices now, your product has to be of better quality. In bloodlines and type/ability. Has anyone else experienced this where some breeders are still expecting higher prices for average or below average horses because they are selling “fancy Wb’s”?
I think for many years those prices were NOT an incentive for people to breed better horses.[/QUOTE]

Very, very true! Just like w/other things, many folks want something simply because it’s rare. This really drives $$-hungry people to fill this supply…almost ALWAYS at the risk of quality.

Another thing (in terms of WBs) is that Americans are now more educated as to what a WB IS and what the standards are. But when I first got involved many people just thought cold+hot= warm. I know a stallion who was black & blingy, ‘imported’ from Germany and branded Hanoverian as a foal. But he was turned down by AHS, Oldenburg, etc. Still, his owner was saavy enough, and the public uninformed enough, that he bred over 200 mares before the well dried up! And most of those mares weren’t WBs, so you ended up with alot of F-1’s…most of 'em subpar.

Like Siegli says, it’s stupid to aim for mediocrity… because even if you DO aim for the top, odds are you will only get average or slightly better MOST of the time.

Excellence is rare for a reason…and breeding is such a crap-shoot. Sometimes your best bet fails and the long shot comes through, but even so, success in breeding is usually a result of a mix of intelligence, education and plain dumb luck…oh, and the perseverance of a Pit Bull…

What drives serious breeders is that desire to produce that perfect horse they see in their mind’s eye. $$ is secondary. That’s why those breeders will remain after the money-hungry crowd has long since gone left the field…

[MysticOakRanch]

Breeders do care about bloodlines and type, whether they are Warmblood or otherwise. But buyers/riders often do not, or simply look for the latest “hot stallion of the day” without really knowing anything beyond the flashy ads and the big score.

One of the recent threads that was discussing bloodlines was regarding a horse who is already showing 4th level - a gelding. And some people felt he was worth “nothing” because he did not have any kind of recognizable breeding. In this case, I would have to agree with those who felt the horse still had value, breeding was not very relevant - he had training and a proven show record. It muddied the waters that apparently one of his owners (I don’t think it was the current one) had lied about his breeding, but the ultimate point with that specific horse - he has value for his training and show record and rideablity, irregardless of what his breeding is.

I can’t tell you how many riders simply don’t know the breeding of their horse - or know the sire, but that is it. So it is up to breeders to know. I do sometimes joke about it - when selling a horse, bloodlines often don’t matter. The buyer really depends on the breeder to know what they are doing. Now, when selling to someone who HAS done some breeding, it is a whole 'nother matter, but that is not the “every day” buyer.

[exvet]

I can’t tell you how many riders simply don’t know the breeding of their horse - or know the sire, but that is it. So it is up to breeders to know. I do sometimes joke about it - when selling a horse, bloodlines often don’t matter. The buyer really depends on the breeder to know what they are doing. Now, when selling to someone who HAS done some breeding, it is a whole 'nother matter, but that is not the “every day” buyer.

I won’t dispute that what you state is reality; but, it’s a narrow-minded perspective that leads to what I believe is a majority of disappointment seen these days. Bloodlines DO matter even in a gelding for multiple reasons. First of all, even great training isn’t going to change the fundamental traits of the beast you throw your leg across. Bloodlines do have a tendency to demonstrate rideability, trainability, sensibility etc. I’ve seen more and more inquiries from those who have no intention of breeding wanting to know how something is bred because they heard so-and-so throws a good ammy mount or so-and so may not. While training may make that animal more suitable, there is no guarantee that the animal is going to stay that way without the exact same type of training at the same level unless the personality and other traits of the beast are more amenable to change. And please don’t get me wrong I am in no way trying to discount training. There is most definitely value in it; but in the end it’s not everything. Nor will it be the sole factor in how good the match is.

I also get contacted by people interested in my breed who more and more will ask what bloodlines I stay away from and for good reason. These are individuals who are looking for something for performance, not breeding. They also want to consider future endeavors and how easy or not an animal with a certain breeding is likely to be to ride/drive/sell if circumstances dictate. These are ammys, not pros and having a foal in their backyard next year is not their goal. Perhaps I see these types more so because I openly run off or turn off ‘the others’.

I can tell you that I asked about bloodlines eons before I had even an inkling that I would end up breeding my own. Again, though, I had a background that already demonstrated the importance of knowing bloodlines (even in the prior generations) to someone who was only interested in performance.

[rubygirl1968]

I’m not a breeder, will never be a breeder, and as a matter of fact am just an over 40 re-rider that’s morphed into part chicken. However, I do love reading the breeding forums because a) I love seeing the pictures of all the fine horse flesh and the resulting foals, and b) it is very educational

[netg]

I’m with exvet in thinking bloodlines matter even in a horse who is only intended for performance. In my case I found my filly through these forums, because I was a big fan of a specific bloodline (Oskar pG.) I knew what the stallion passed, but wanted to see a mare with more TB blood and lighter/shorter offspring than most of what I saw out there. I was looking at other young horses out there and found other lines I liked/disliked, and definitely was able to search by bloodlines - but when I found Ellie she was the exact mix of bloodlines for the temperament and type I wanted. Especially for those of us who don’t live in a hotbed of breeding, it’s very helpful to know bloodlines for shopping.

I also want to thank those of you who have given very good info in this thread - it has been really informative and thought provoking.

[MysticOakRanch]

[QUOTE=exvet;7270842]

I won’t dispute that what you state is reality; but, it’s a narrow-minded perspective that leads to what I believe is a majority of disappointment seen these days. .[/QUOTE]

Please re-read my entire quote - I state this is why it is so important that breeders know bloodlines and understand breeding types! Because many riders do not, so even more responsibility falls on the breeder. And the struggle sometimes becomes - breeders are not always riders, so we need both perspectives for the best riding type.