With small animals very few vets will suggest or even mention euthanasia unless it’s extremely obviously needed ASAP.
that has not been my experience at all. A good vet will tell it like it is, and offer options, one of which may be euthanasia.
[QUOTE=wendy;6397510]
that has not been my experience at all. A good vet will tell it like it is, and offer options, one of which may be euthanasia.[/QUOTE]
This has been my experience as well.
When it becomes the CLIENT’S resposibility to present additional options to the vet, someone isn’t doing their job.
Why even have vets if you have to go to internet school and tell them everything they need to do.
[QUOTE=Nezzy;6397215]
i am so sorry, it is hard enough to go thru knowing your pet is ready for the bridge, but to have a vet pull this crap? awful. [/QUOTE]
What crap? The vet is giving suggestions for treatment. It’s not their animal, so to be honest, they don’t know if they are “ready” yet or not…they can only go on what you tell them. And if they think you want treatment, they are going to try to figure something out unless there is nothing. I think it’s unfair to suggest the vet is “pulling” anything.
OP, I know you’ve already called the vet, but I agree that they may not have suggested euthanasia because they felt you wanted treatment options. Not all vets are as good at managing the people as the animals. My vet often talks about “quality of life” but I’m not sure they are all as comfortable suggesting euthanasia instead of treatment…and he’s been around a long time so he has had a lot of practice interacting with pet owners. Not always the easier part of the job.
Good luck!
Actually, I completely disagree with this. I view this thought as the ‘evolution’ of the concept that we should treat animals like humans including keep alive at all costs. Geez, the one gift we can still give our beloved animals is to spare them pain and suffering- sadly that seems to have pretty universally gone out the window. Witness, for example, that we now routinely subject large animals and small to all sorts of treatment that does cause them lengthy periods of pain and suffering (e.g. Barbaro) because ‘we know what’s best’ and ‘we know (or hope) they’ll get better.’
I believe it should still be a vet’s responsibility to objectively lay out ALL of the options- and ultimately recommend what is right for the animal, not what is right for the vet’s ledger or the owner’s wish to avoid the pet’s death.
I recognize my view is probably very minority these days but I am sticking to it. Over the years, when discussing all of the unpleasant options, I’ve prompted the vet as needed by asking, ‘what would you do if it were your pet?’ And with few exceptions, the frank answer has invariably been ‘euthanize.’
You’ll note that I did not say whether or not I agreed that it was RIGHT that the owner needs to bring up euthanasia first. I don’t. I agree with you 100% that they vet should lay out ALL the options, and I even want to know when euthanasia MAY be an option. As in “if we don’t see x/y/z response, or if we do see a/b/c response, we’ll need to run more testing or consider euthing.”
But vets are in a terribly tough place, especially with clients that they don’t have a close relationship with, and get lambasted for suggesting euthanasia if the owner isn’t mentally ready. Is it fair? No, absolutely not. Few things in life are.
So, as a client, DO YOUR OWN DUE DILIGENCE and make sure the vet understands where YOU are on the euthanasia subject. Think of it as having a living will for your animals. Your vet can serve you and your pets better if you are upfront with your position on when is enough. And remember, too, that the vet only sees your pet for a brief appointment. What they see may look okay, but the whole day might be pretty grim. We have to advocate for our critters since we know them best.
[QUOTE=S1969;6397604]
What crap? The vet is giving suggestions for treatment. It’s not their animal, so to be honest, they don’t know if they are “ready” yet or not…they can only go on what you tell them. And if they think you want treatment, they are going to try to figure something out unless there is nothing. I think it’s unfair to suggest the vet is “pulling” anything.
OP, I know you’ve already called the vet, but I agree that they may not have suggested euthanasia because they felt you wanted treatment options. Not all vets are as good at managing the people as the animals. My vet often talks about “quality of life” but I’m not sure they are all as comfortable suggesting euthanasia instead of treatment…and he’s been around a long time so he has had a lot of practice interacting with pet owners. Not always the easier part of the job.
Good luck![/QUOTE]
the crap i mean is telling her the dog needs $1000 of diagnostics and never even mentioning that the dog might have no quality of life. By not trying to soften the decision for her. Not everyone wants to spend Thousands to find out what they already know. If the owner says there is no quality of life, Then i trust the owner. I don’t like Vets who brush off what the owner has to say.
Did the OP tell the vet the dog had no quality of life? She definitely didn’t ask the vet about euthanasia.
It’s not a stretch for a vet to think that an owner that hasn’t brought up euthanasia or discussed the animal’s quality of life is not ready to discuss those things and is more interested in testing and keeping the critter going.
Vets aren’t mind readers. We have to share our position on these matters with them.
I did say originally that he was miserable and had no quality of life, Simkie. And that I didn’t think he it was fair to put such an old dog through yet another surgery (he’s had 3 major ones already).
All water under the bridge now. The vet never called back yesterday so this morning I called the office and told the receptionist I wanted to euth and scheduled it with her. Cricket spent the day eating all his favorite treats, doped up on medication and generally happy. Appointment is at 4:30 with a different vet in the practice.
I will be finding a new practice, this one is not a good fit for me. But overall it’s OK, I’ve spent the day enjoying the old guy and not thinking about the vet issues – don’t want them to interfere. Thanks to you all for your help in this difficult time.
Happy you were able to find a more compassionate vet, fordtraktor. It does sound like the original one was a tool, if you told him all that and he was still pushing testing 
I’m glad Cricket is having a good day and hope his passing is as easy as possible for the both of you :sadsmile:
[QUOTE=dacasodivine;6396168]
Andy, if you the the “Quote” button, it will copy it for you.
I only mentioned the dry ice because OP said she would shoot the dog herself if she could. It is an option that is not violent. I was told of this method myself when I needed to euth that chick and couldn’t snap the neck as suggested. It would have been instant for the chick but would have traumatized me.[/QUOTE]
While CO2 is still listed as an acceptable method by the AVMA, the use of dry ice to generate it is not considered acceptable. this is because you need a specific concentration of CO2 to do the job in a humane way and dry ice is variable. I guess I would not recomend it for home use…
I would recommend the OP either state her wishes clearly or find a different vet.
And to the OP, please don’t feel like a killer for making the suggestion. You are doing the right thing in considering your dogs quality of life!
[QUOTE=Simkie;6397838]
Vets aren’t mind readers.[/QUOTE]
Well, no.
But their entire existence is based on evaluating patients who can’t talk so I would think that an evaluation of said patient and its likely prospects ought to lend some clues on what the options are.
Good for you for making the tough decisions. Godspeed.
[QUOTE=Nezzy;6397827]
the crap i mean is telling her the dog needs $1000 of diagnostics and never even mentioning that the dog might have no quality of life. By not trying to soften the decision for her. Not everyone wants to spend Thousands to find out what they already know. If the owner says there is no quality of life, Then i trust the owner. I don’t like Vets who brush off what the owner has to say.[/QUOTE]
My point is that since we were not there, I think it’s unfair to blame the vet, as if they are only trying to make a few extra bucks and watch a dog suffer. And their opinion for diagnostics might be related to a specific, treatable medical problem and not just random tests to see if anything comes up…
Obviously this vet might not be the best at reading the wishes of his/her clients (the owners) but presumably they are recommending diagnostics in the hope of solving a problem, so it’s hard to say they are doing the wrong thing. Perhaps the vet thinks he/she can improve the dogs quality of life.
A good vet can do both (work with animals and their owners) - and do both well. So it is good that the OP is going to look around for a different vet as this relationship doesn’t seem to be working.
OP, I’m sorry for your difficult decision and for your loss.
((Hugs)) to you fordtraktor and sweet Cricket. Monday a week ago I had to PTS an aged kitty of mine. My vet agreed, it was okay to let kitty go even though she might have had another month or two of God given time. She said it’s okay to let an infirm critter go before they totally crash out.
Re: vets and euthanasia, totally depends on the vet and in some cases the practice policies. In a practice where I once worked when an aged/infirm critter appeared one SA vet would hem and haw, recommend this and that treatment and diagnostics, do everything but utter the “E” word. Even when clients brought up euthanasia that vet would want to do workups “just to be sure”. Another vet in the practice would advise the owner of the prognosis- good, poor, fatal- and then lay out diagnostics, treatment and/or euthanasia options. The clients with the latter vet were happier clients.
You have to be the steward of your critter because the standing vet in front of you may not be the person you think they are. If you have a vet who exceeds your expectations then move heaven and earth to keep them.
[QUOTE=fordtraktor;6396146]
Thanks everyone for the support – it means a lot. I called the vet’s office back and told them straight out what I wanted. I have a little tramadol let over from his last surgery…I will ask if I can give him that in the meantime to make him as comfortable as possible.
Now if I can only manage to stop crying enough so I talk to the vet…
I don’t mean to vacillate, I am just used to my horse vets where when an animal gets like this we list the options, and euth is brought up matter of factly as one of our options. I feel like a killer having to bring it up myself/refuse treatment.[/QUOTE]
Ah…it sounds as if you are waiting for the VET to bring it up as an option. YOU
may need to be the one to bring it up.
[QUOTE=Judysmom;6396611]
((HUGS)) Fordtraktor. I understand what your going through.
I just got home from putting my 15 yr old shep/collie X down, and it was kind of the same thing. Yeah, she was eating and kinda hobbling around, but she was just not having a good time anymore. She had laryngeal paralysis and disc disease, so she couldn’t breathe very well, was falling a lot and was getting stuck on the floor. I know what I did was right for my dog.
Jingles for you in making a hard decision.[/QUOTE]
Judysmom, I understand YOU. 2 years ago, our 12 y/o greyhound (not incredibly old) apparently developed laryngeal paralysis quite suddenly and rapidly. Didn’t help that she developed it in the summer so my parents thought she was just panting because she was hot. Wasn’t until she had trouble getting up that they rushed her to the vet who had to put her down on the spot because circulation was being cut off to her brain.
Definitely seems odd that a vet would keep suggesting treatment when an animal is suffering, but like another vet said on here, you can get negative feedback from suggesting it as an option.
We’ve had 1 dog and 4 cats pass in the last 4 years (all but one were 12 or older due to: laryngeal paralysis, nasal tumor, jaw tumor, likely kidney failure, and not a clue for one that just stopped breathing - the cat was overweight, but vet said it wasn’t an issue…I still think it was and he was trying to make my brother feel better for having a seriously overweight cat). For my cat, our vet suggested euthanizing, but gave the option of Cortisone shots (which drastically helped and improved her quality of life by about 18 months -diagnosed in June '09 and given 3-6 months tops, and was put down February '11 when the shots were no longer keeping the tumor size/swelling at bay or helping her get around.) I was the one to come to the decision to put her down and the vet concurred. When I came home for her, I just knew it was time - she was telling me it was time. She was starting to get spasms, which meant the tumor had migrated to her brain. She had bloody noses daily. On the day we put her down, I almost had a glimmer of hope as she ate a lot of baby food I spoon fed her, drank a lot of water, and got up and made a wobbly walk to the litter box and was successful. But I knew that this was about as good as she was getting and she was still very wobbly and thin and didn’t seem to be enjoying life outside of her heated cat bed.
We’ve also had our vet since the late 70s when my family first got cats - he knows us well (watched me and brother grow up along with our animals), and knows our menagerie well. Normally he’s very matter of fact, but will encourage us to seek specialists if needed.
I am sorry for your losses, Judysmom and SLW. So hard to lose these friends when we have spent so many years together.
Cricket went very peacefully in my arms and is buried under the spruce trees with my junior/AO jumper. The two of them always went to shows together and they will meet me someday on the bridge, waiting with the horse trailer hooked up and ready to head out on another adventure.
Many hugs. No matter how long we know, when it’s time it hurts!
Sorry for your loss.
[QUOTE=fordtraktor;6398145]
I am sorry for your losses, Judysmom and SLW. So hard to lose these friends when we have spent so many years together.
Cricket went very peacefully in my arms and is buried under the spruce trees with my junior/AO jumper. The two of them always went to shows together and they will meet me someday on the bridge, waiting with the horse trailer hooked up and ready to head out on another adventure.[/QUOTE]
Big Hugs! some day, you will only remember Cricket with Smiles, and no more tears.
