WHY would anyone do this??? Or how to un-parelli a horse?

[wehrlegirl]

[QUOTE=LuvMyTB;3962151]
Sounds like the mare just didn’t know how to go with side reins on, or didn’t like them. A lot of horses, NH or not, can be very clausterphobic about having their heads restricted/tied down.

I wonder why your driving trainer allowed the horse to repeatedly fllip itself over. Doesn’t sound like a great training method. :no:

Back to the OT…I agree that the OP’s horse was clearly NH-ed to death. My mare has 3 years of Parelli training, which I did myself, and she will only turn to face me a) when she’s tired or b) when I ask. By no means does she need to have her eyes on me all the time. In fact, I’d be thrilled if she looked at more often. :lol:[/QUOTE]

This style of side reins weren’t tie downs… and she did turn in without them. The trainer was simply trying to get the mare to go forward instead of turning it… and this is how the mare decided to get out of it. Both the trainer and the previous owners said it was a parelli issue. Its very interesting to read others having the problems with it.

[MelantheLLC]

If you have a horse turning in and coming at you in an aggressive manner, in spite of what you do, you certainly have a real problem, and it ain’t Parelli.

But blaming any horse that doesn’t know how to halt out on the circle when it first is learning to lunge as hopelessly “Parelli’d” is a heck of a leap.

Again, I’d say a systematic course in ground work, with the lead, complete predictability and working on teaching the horse to move past you on voice and hand cues (ie like trailer loading prep) will not take “months.”

Whatever the Parelli stuff does, it is basically just another system of cues that the horse has learned. If you systematically and progressively teach him a different set of cues, then 99% of horses will be quite willing to learn them.

Claiming they have been made hopelessly mentally insane by NH or such is bunk. Horses learn what they are taught as long as it is taught in a way they can understand. So just get on with it if your system is so much better than P. Plenty of horses that never came near a Parelli person have shit for ground and lunging training. Why? Because nobody who had a clue took the time to teach them.

So Just Do It. All this whining about P is a waste of energy that could be put into teaching the horse what you want him to do. If you are having trouble doing that, maybe it’s not P, maybe it’s YOUR system. If a person does not know immediately how to deal with a horse that turns in on the lunge, then their education is lacking and that’s not P’s fault.

[mvp]

Sorry for the rant and anti-NH but…

NH methods aren’t bad per se. In fact they were done by plenty of good horsemen long before anyone turned them into hard, formal, money-making systems.

There is no substitute for learning to read a horse and conduct a conversation with him. Horses that have only one response, and one they turn to all the time, or horses willing to flip over backwards to escape the confusion of new demand are products of training (NH or otherwise) gone very, very wrong.

So defend NH methods by saying there are better and worse practitioners, but don’t try to deny that the gamut of the people making the gadgets, video tapes and weekend clinics are doing people and horses a serious disservice. They are not offering the real, very slowly-acquired skill of learning to communicate with a horse.

OK, back to the thread.

[CoolMeadows]

Nobody’s whining but you are making assumptions about the OPs horse. The FACT still remains that I’ve had two trashed NH horse. I didn’t create the charging problem, but I fixed it and the horse wasn’t euthanized but instead is now showing the A circuit with a pro. Your experiences are different than mine so I guess it works for you but I’ve yet to meet a nice, sane, useful NH horse. Each one I’ve met has been either on edge or totally bewildered. In my opinion it’s a dangerous system that encourages people with no horse sense to get in over their heads, fail to read the warning signs the horse is giving them and get themselves hurt or create a horse dangerous enough that they put it down or send it through an auction. It takes years and years to learn, not a few months with some books and random expensive objects to wave at your horse. YMMV

[DLee]

I have a hard time believing the horse who is flipping over backwards is doing it because of a reason other than the side reins. If I have a horse that is new to that, I start with long side reins, or just one if they seem at all panicky.

[Leather]

I think the key will be a combo of you both being re-trained.

Horses are like computers–they do what you ask, not what you want.

To overcome your enemy (PP) you need to learn to think like him. :lol:

The good news is that you don’t have to watch PP specifically–I can’t stand him. I much prefer folks like Chris Cox and Stacy Westfall, and Clinton Anderson in small doses.

Once you learn the cues the horse is used to, you can slowly work at retraining them to the ones you want.

I think that Cherry Hill’s book “101 Longeing and Longlining Exercises” might address the more “western” cues as well.

When I was teaching my youngster to longe, he had the habit of turning in to face me when asked to halt. He was never taught to do that, he was just insecure and looking at me for guidance–“I stopped like you asked–what next?!”

I started long lining (two longe lines with a surcingle) while longeing him so that I had an outside rein to help him understand that he should remain on the circle which helped immensely.

[Sithly]

[QUOTE=MelantheLLC;3962215]
So Just Do It. All this whining about P is a waste of energy that could be put into teaching the horse what you want him to do. If you are having trouble doing that, maybe it’s not P, maybe it’s YOUR system. If a person does not know immediately how to deal with a horse that turns in on the lunge, then their education is lacking and that’s not P’s fault.[/QUOTE]

This is actually a good point. Every time this subject comes up, I just roll my eyes at all the weird advice that gets posted. Just make the damn horse keep going. It’s not rocket science.

And this is coming from someone who freakin’ hates Parelli.

[saultgirl]

[QUOTE=LessonLearned;3961353]
I probably shouldn’t blame JUST parelli, but we know for a fact that the horse had some sort of “natural horsemanship” training.

A friend and I are working with a young QH that another friend wanted to sell. He is sweet and willing, but knows nothing. EXCEPT the whole “turn and face” thing in response to any stimulus. Now we are eventers but really think this guy will be a low level kids horse or even trail buddy, but since he knows nothing we wanted to start working on lunging to make him learn about going forward. No dice. All he wants to do is stay with you and after about a 1/2 circle he turns to face you.

How do you undo this kind of training???[/QUOTE]

If he turns to face you on the lunge, point in the direction you want him to go, (as in, raise yourarm slightly in the direction of travel. this should be the arm you are holding the lunge line in.) and flick the whip, and use your verbal command “walk-on” or cluck or whatever. If the parelli system is what he knows, he should go where you direct him.

With my former horse, I did lots of parelli stuff with him and I could still lunge him normally (with a bridle and side reins) when I wanted him to work a little harder.

People overreact so much – it takes a little while to find the “buttons” on a new horse. I have twice now retrained WP to hunter, and yeah, things are different, you just need to help the horse understand what you are asking. And no, I didn’t come on here screaming that Western Pleasure riders ruin their horses because my horse won’t accept contact on her mouth!!

[Couture_TB]

I honestly don’t even buy or take in horses that have had NH work on them. I’m not saying everyone who does it is wrong, BUT why would you teach them half this stuff? Most of these horses never go on to have a real job. Not all, but most.

[threedogpack]

Does he lead well?

If so start with leading, gradually moving away from him, so that you can eventually stand and ask him to go around you.

Lunging is a form of leading, just in a big circle around you.

My new gelding will turn to face you and he has had nothing…NH or otherwise done with him. I taught him to lead and stop while up close first. Then I moved further and further away. I didn’t start 20 feet away from him.

[BayRoan]

NH, or not, if you’re lunging the horse and it stops and faces you, just send it on by flicking it on the inside shoulder with the lunge whip. Don’t crack it, just flick it so that the tip stings on the shoulder that it pushed in. That should send the horse back out on the circle.

If you’re not good enough with a lunge whip to do that, you should be practicing with the lunge whip (away from horses, naturally) to be more accurate. Lunge whips are not just noise makers.

[threedogpack]

[QUOTE=BayRoan;3962830]
NH, or not, if you’re lunging the horse and it stops and faces you, just send it on by flicking it on the inside shoulder with the lunge whip. Don’t crack it, just flick it so that the tip stings on the shoulder that it pushed in. That should send the horse back out on the circle.

If you’re not good enough with a lunge whip to do that, you should be practicing with the lunge whip (away from horses, naturally) to be more accurate. Lunge whips are not just noise makers.[/QUOTE]

in my case it did not matter how good I was. It scared the horse and he moved forward to get away…toward me. He was not being disobedient, he didn’t know what that meant.

[saultgirl]

[QUOTE=GaellentQuest;3962745]
I honestly don’t even buy or take in horses that have had NH work on them. I’m not saying everyone who does it is wrong, BUT why would you teach them half this stuff? Most of these horses never go on to have a real job. Not all, but most.[/QUOTE]

Why would you teach them this stuff? Most of it is based on 1) having the horse accept strange/uncomfortable/scary things (“desensitizing” or “bombproofing”)and 2) yielding to pressure. That’s basically it.

Do your horses not know these things?

[Beverley]

How I would undo this kind of training, to answer the OP’s question, is just start showing the horse what it is I want (yeah, lots of boring repeats in this case, it IS easier to show an untrained one what you want)- keep pressing on through the angst and confusion and reward well when the lightbulb goes on. My mare, bought nearly a year ago, had been worked ‘a certain way’ in the round pen. I just reschooled her to the way I wanted to do things, which made it easier to teach her how to longe. She’s a quick study, so it really didn’t take very long.

I loaned my gelding to a friend oh, a year and a half ago or so, when we were going to do some trail work and his horse was laid up. He did some of the push-your-horse-around-on-the-lead-rope-on-the-ground-before-you-get-on stuff that I guess is advocated by some, but which I’ve never had a need for. Horse looked at him kinda funny and then said okay, yeah, whatever and did the drills. They had a pleasant ride- but then they would have without the drills as well.

[system]

I can’t help but wonder why you need to lunge him in the first place? there are many different training methods in the world to day and every horse is different (can’t see why people seem to think that if it works for one it’ll work for them all)
maybe instead of trying to get the horse all worked up in knots maybe you should just saddle him up and go for a ride. After all if you think he’s going to make a good bushbuddy or low level kids pony I have never meet a kid nor a pleasure rider that bothered to lunge their horse they’ld just get on.

[system]

[QUOTE=GaellentQuest;3962745]
I honestly don’t even buy or take in horses that have had NH work on them. I’m not saying everyone who does it is wrong, BUT why would you teach them half this stuff? Most of these horses never go on to have a real job. Not all, but most.[/QUOTE]

Thats not try majority of horses in australia are natural horsemanship trained, somewhere along the line, and I can tell you that our stockhorse have a job alot harder then most people could handle.
Maybe it’s different over your way seems that way

[Draftlover]

WHY would anyone do this??? Or how to un-parelli a horse?

The only way to “Un-Parelli” the horse is to try and understand the Parelli way of thinking. The Parelli way is not saying ‘This is the way!!’ What they are saying is that all horses can be tought to do so much MORE with the right approach and the right language !! Any person unable to deal with a horse that has had previous Parelli training, shouldn’t have the priveledge of even having contact with something as noble of the horse. Horses are not ‘stupid’ contrary to competative so called horse peoples beliefs…Do your homework or give up horses !!!

[Cherry]

First, let me say that there is nothing wrong with a lot of the NH training when used properly. Even John Lyons says that you can retrain any horse to do anything you want it to do (my disclaimer–“if you know what you’re doing”).

I doesn’t sound to me as though the horse has been Parelli-ized–it just sounds as if the horse has not been trained–period! Just start over!!!

[Draftlover]

Go Cherry !!

[Cherry]

A horse isn’t born knowing how to lunge–it needs to be taught! You have to break it down into baby steps for the horse and if you don’t know how to do that then you need to send the horse out to someone who knows what they’re doing.