John Lyons is in the same genre as the Parelli’s. He understands the horses psychology…maybe not exactly the same as Parelli, each horse is individual. Their individual Character, personality etc needs to be dealt with in as unique a way as they are… I think, and I’m under the impression you do to, understands that fact…unfortunately others don’t
So … off topic a bit here - but what was a P. NHer trying to do to my colt when she took the end of the leadline and spun it around her head like a flippin’ helicopter? Little man looked quite bemused. Then when he came up to her she flapped her hands and sent him away. Beats me.
I cant add any advice that hasnt already been said, but it’s funny this came up today. I’ve been grooming a little 2 year old paint filly that came from auction. I was told she hadnt been handled much at all, but she seemed fairly quiet and friendly and badly in need of a good brushing. Since there’s nowhere to tie in her paddock and I was unsure if she even did tie, I just clipped a short lead on her to groom her. Instant change in the horse, she’s awake, doing the whole turning and facing thing, the lightest touch on the lead makes her think about backing. And good luck getting anywhere near her bum. Yet she does lead nicely under normal circumstances. Just odd. So I unclipped the lead and she stood quietly for an uneventful grooming. You guessed it, horse wasnt as we thought, turned out the previous owner had started her and done some Parelli games. Suddenly things make sense 
In this one’s case, she’s super smart and sensitive and really tries hard. So as soon as that lead’s on she’s waiting for you to make a move.
Part of me thinks its a bit cool and wishes my gelding was that attentive to me, but the other part feels a bit sorry for her and wishes she could just relax. A happy medium would be nice.
New horses alway seem to come with a surprise or two. It never ceases to amaze me how observant and intelligent they are.
When we start lunging younsters, at the end of the session, we get them to halt on the circle and then turn to face us. They are also taught voice commands as well. At no point do they charge or try and run us over. We walk up to them and give them well deserved pats for being good and doing their job. Don’t see what’s wrong with that.
But we also don’t use lunging as a training routine after the horse is riding properly. If they’re broken properly, have plenty of turnout, and on a good feed program we shouldn’t have to lunge them to be able to ride them.
Terri
Wow. I had no idea NH training could do this to a horse. Its like getting a child back from a cult. Or a victim back from some vampires or something.
Sorry, CoolMeadows. I’m watching the Buffy the vampire slayer series again and these horses sound like zombie horses.
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This is normal behaviour for a young horse and doesn’t seem to be a vice that needs to be worked through. Rather, he needs training to begin so that he understands what pressure means and how to move out on a circle nicely.
I really don’t understand the reference to Parelli here. I don’t know much about Pat Parelli, but from the few articles I’ve read, he does a lot of work with horses in a roundpen which is a lot like longeing. You’d think that a Parelli-trained horse would know the basics of longeing…
Really? This is where it comes down to being able to read a horse. A horse who turns in at you, is licking his lips and listening to you for the next cue is not a horse who is going to charge you. I teach my horses to stop and look at me when they’re on the longe. I’ve never had one charge me yet.
There’s also a difference between an aggressive horse and a horse who is so frantic that he runs over top of you – though I don’t think either has any respect for humans.
This young horse sounds confused. He doesn’t sound like he was poorly trained or NH trained or whatever, just not trained to longe period.
What is wrong with a horse who stops and waits for his owner to give him the next cue? I think that’s far better than having a horse who takes it upon himself to decide what to do next or one who is too pushy or very spooky.
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They were! Bad things happen when people who can’t read horses think they can buy some DVDs and train. If these were “well trained” NH horses then the owners who taught them wouldn’t have been dumping them/ threatening to euthanize them as dangerous. But I guess it’s just because I didn’t understand the NH way… apparently neither did the horses teachers since they were the ones giving up on their creations. :rolleyes:
Lucky you if you haven’t met any trashed NH horses but they’re out there.
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How sad theres people that think you can only train a horse their way. Not surprised at all just sad
Yes, it is. There are many roads to Rome but none of them come with a DVD that says “this is the only way! Unbelievers are just ignorant and cruel! Oh yeah, and you must buy some overpriced ropes, poorly fitted saddles and sit like a sack o’ potatos to get there too”.
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I’ve seen alot of DVD’s never one that said that at all though. No doubt theres people who don’t like the person thats on the DVD so they decide thats whats being said though.
I appreciate the helpful advice on here. FWIW, we were told that the former owners had “Parelli’d” the horse. I am really starting to believe that you can devalue a perfectly good horse with this stuff if you don’t know what you are doing (which his owners clearly did not).
We are taking baby steps with him and hopefully he can unlearn some of his less ideal training.
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You can devalue a horse with any type training not done properly doesn’t have to be just the so called NH method. And how one person trains for themselves may not work at all for the next person. Myself I’ve never found a reason to lounge a horse with a lounge line in over 40 years of training it just serves no purpose for what I want.
[QUOTE=LessonLearned;3963721]
I am really starting to believe that you can devalue a perfectly good horse with this stuff if you don’t know what you are doing (which his owners clearly did not). [/QUOTE]
Yup. Just like with any discipline or training philosophy. If you don’t know what you are doing and are just using ‘techniques’ without understanding, or just trying to get the horse to do what you saw someone else do.
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[QUOTE=saultgirl;3962716]
If he turns to face you on the lunge, point in the direction you want him to go, (as in, raise yourarm slightly in the direction of travel. this should be the arm you are holding the lunge line in.) and flick the whip, and use your verbal command “walk-on” or cluck or whatever. If the parelli system is what he knows, he should go where you direct him. [/QUOTE]
By no means am I an expert in training horses. I spent a lot of years training dogs though and the first step is to give a word and/or hand signal to every thing you want the dog to do. I have applied that principle to my groundwork with my horses. I have found in my limited experience that my horses seem to enjoy the extended vocabulary in our ground work.
Saultgirl is right on. Raise your arm slightly in the direction of travel and if walk on is the command you want to use, use it. Everytime he thinks about coming in do the same.
I would take it one step further though: I would give the turn in and watch habit a command word/handsignal. Then teach him to do it only when you ask for it. My lingo is “pay attention” but “watch me” is just as easy.
I think he just needs to be guided. Give him some new words/commands to learn.
I fixed my QH by teaching him with the double lunge. That way you can control the outside and keep them straight. Start out by ground driving behind him and slowly work it into a circle. When you halt, you can use that outside aid to keep him straight.
Mine figured it out quickly and he’s 8. So it’s not a problem to fix.
[QUOTE=saultgirl;3963089]
Why would you teach them this stuff? Most of it is based on 1) having the horse accept strange/uncomfortable/scary things (“desensitizing” or “bombproofing”)and 2) yielding to pressure. That’s basically it.
Do your horses not know these things?[/QUOTE]
Yes my horses all know those things. They all do intensive in hand and long line work to learn their jobs before I even get on them. Then they do hacks around shows and cross country courses to get them use to different things before they even go to their first show to compete.
Are my horses ‘bombproof’ nope. They are finely tuned competition animals. They behave on the ground, they lunge correctly, they load, I can get on them with a mounting block or with a leg up, and they will jump what I put them at.
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Count your blessings.
You could be wanting him for a driving horse!
Great fun… NOT … having a horse turn to face you all the time when you’re trying to drive it way out in front of you! I HATE it when folks bring me horses to put to harness or to back to ride and they say they’ve been doing a bit of Parelli with it!
Just start him all over again and use lots of praise and reward when he gets it right.
I have had 5 screwed up P horses in the last 5yrs… I had this issue with every one of them. I’m sorry, when i longe, my horse stays out there on the circle quietly when i say whoa, i dont need him to look at me and wait for another cue… He can see me perfectly well facing forward and hear my voice when i say walk on… Try giving longe lessons to little kids that have been P-itized… Its ridiculous.
I also had a horse come to me that was quote “level 3” parelli… I dont know one bit about the training system only what i’ve heard and had to undo… So whatever the heck level 3 means to me, i would have assumed the horse could stear… Nope, not without a carrot stick. Another one was level 4, but you couldnt mount him without a small miracle, man that one was a nut case with the turning in, he would turn in every 3 strides and you could see it plain on his face… “I did it, i’m done…”
The problem with P crap, and those like it, is that there are a LOT of really smart horses out there that do just fine using common sense training. The smart ones get the short end of the stick if they end up with a P owner it seems, they figure it out too quick and then are wacko waiting for signals and games… Arabs, hotter horses that are more senstive to it seem to be the ones screwed up the worst… I’ve seen some super QH and Appys with more of that “duh” syndrom who do fantastic with the NH stuff… But a sensitive horse with a strong desire to please goes south quick with this training…
Not saying all of them do, i think its owners using this training in access, or not knowing how to properly use it.
However, i will NEVER condone that a horse turning in on the lunge line to “join up” is EVER EVER a good thing period. There are too many situations i’ve been in with horses like this that gets down right aggrivating going back to squre one over and over to undo this so someone doesnt get hurt.
For those of you that it works for, bravo, maybe you are using it right, your horse is the way mellow type that doesnt fry easily, or you just havent overdone it to the point that you’ve screwed them up…
My advice to the OP as posted many times previously, back to square one. GO FORWARD. There is no turning-in option. The present guy i have here thats been Pepperonied is 12 and a lesson horse, longe lessons SUCK with him, but otherwise he is very good, so between beginner lessons i put the more seasoned riders on him and make him march forward and stay straight on the longe. We almost have it down to the left, but to the right is still terrible, he turns in completely and then you cant hardly send him back out to move on. Round pen freelonging would be great i think for him, but i do not have a round pen. So we are just plugging along. He’s only been here a month… So i’m happy to see some improvement anyway.
His former owner also did clicker training, he fetches… interesting… And worse yet, gives kisses… So he is constantly bonking people in the face… Isnt that fun? The poor guy, you gotta love him.
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You know it sounds like CoolMeadows and I and others have had similar problems with these horses, and seen first hand the damage that can be done.
The issue is you must be able to understand and read horses. What these programs do is try to skip that part and simply give someone a process that bypasses good, old fashioned horsemanship and understanding of the animals.
I believe that PP or Lyons or any of the others can make these methods work extremely well because they have spent a lifetime around horses and have that ability to read them. However, when they give their techniques to people who lack this base of knowledge, and are told they DON’T NEED IT IN ORDER TO USE THEIR TECHNIQUES, they do a TERRIBLE disservice to those people and more importantly to their horses.
We do a lot of problem/rehab horses here. Without doubt the toughest, most screwed up ones have had some degree of NH (and all but one mentioned Parelli specifically) applied by current or previous owners. My husband actually half jokingingly once suggested that we tack on a $500 surcharge for people who bring us a horse with a bad history who is “trained level-whatever Parelli”. I’ve also had the pleasure of working with a horse who was started from the ground up by a NH practitioner–the original guy, not a disciple–and he was a wonderful horse. Good trainers are good trainers no matter the method–and people that don’t have the knowledge or ability to train shouldn’t be training anything, no matter what the method. Because ANY bad training can do irreparable harm to horses.
Horses should be horses. They should be allowed the lives and reactions of horses. I don’t want a horse that never notices it’s surroundings. I don’t want a horse that waits for me to tell it every single little thing it’s allowed to do. I want a horse that works with me, that understands and enjoys it’s job, and takes initiative and responsibility for itself and it’s actions. Any training that takes that away from a horse–whether that’s the intention or not–is doing a disservice to the horse.
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