WHY would anyone do this??? Or how to un-parelli a horse?

[Karma]

Turning in

For all the NH people and the people who teach the horses to turn it- agrhhh- it’s such a pain when I later want this horse to work straight, teach a lunge line lesson to a little kid, learn to drive or do some recreational vaulting. Like many others I prefer my horses learn to stop straight from the beginning. Horses have excellent peripheral vision, not so great head on, so they can see my cues just fine while still facing in the direction of travel. They are also less likely to spin in and change direction when they well please or invade my space. I personally consider turning in on the lunge a bad habit no matter who teaches it.

[wehrlegirl]

@butlerfamilyzoo;3964013

The smart ones get the short end of the stick if they end up with a P owner it seems, they figure it out too quick and then are wacko waiting for signals and games… Arabs, hotter horses that are more senstive to it seem to be the ones screwed up the worst…

yup, yup, yup…or they just use it to get out of work… the mare that flipped had been taught all the games by two teenage girls… who ended up scared to death of her…games are cute but a safe horse is more important. They ruined her.

/QUOTE You could be wanting him for a driving horse!

Great fun… NOT … having a horse turn to face you all the time when you’re trying to drive it way out in front of you! I HATE it when folks bring me horses to put to harness or to back to ride and they say they’ve been doing a bit of Parelli with it!/

:no::no::no::no:

[threedogpack]

so what is the explanation for the gelding I have that has not been taught much at all?

he turns to face me when on a lunge line too.

I am slowly getting him where I want him, but he has not had any NH or traditional training.

[system]

[QUOTE=threedogpack;3964342]
so what is the explanation for the gelding I have that has not been taught much at all?

he turns to face me when on a lunge line too.

I am slowly getting him where I want him, but he has not had any NH or traditional training.[/QUOTE]

It pretty much just like in the horse books you’ll find one person in the middle another leads the horse gradually goes from leading to driving in sorts if you get me with the lunge whip sort of at his bum and the other person around half way from you to the horse. pushing forward and gradually over time the other person moves all the way down the line until they’re at the centre person and then they’re not needed pretty much. though it important that only the person in the centre gives the direction the person out along the line is more of a backup and to help thehorse better understand what you want hope that helps.

[glitterless]

Maybe the horses aren’t Parellied or screwed up or whatever term you want to use. Maybe the new owners of these horses don’t realize that horses are animals with brains and that they don’t always do what the last horse did.

I’ve had young, totally unstarted horses that I had from foals go out on the longe for the first time, stop, and walk back towards me. Did Parelli sneak into my barn one night and “Parelli” up those horses?

I think the problem with these “problem” horses that some of you get in for training is that they were ruined by inexperienced people who tried to train them. I’m sure these people would have screwed the horse up with or without Parelli because you have to understand how a horse thinks and how horses behave to have a chance at getting their training right.

Is the issue here really that horses have been Parellied or that horses often get into the hands of the wrong people and end up with vices and problems that are difficult to work through?

[TB_or_not_TB]

I think some of you guys are confusing the issue. Of course a young horse can naturally want to stop and turn in/approach you on the lunge, that’s just how they operate. NH encourages and rewards this behavior, which is why it’s more difficult to reprogram them into not doing so.

Some folks seem to be implying that the OP thinks the horse is Parelli trained BECAUSE he turns in, which is not what she said. She said he has been Parelli trained because of the information she received from the former owner as well as many OTHER parelli behaviors, like the backing with the shaking rope. In this case, it’s a perfectly legit question to ask how to de-program this behavior.

Seriously, I don’t see anyone blaming NH for a horse’s natural tendancy to turn and face you; just being TRAINED for that.

[Thomas_1]

[QUOTE=threedogpack;3964342]
so what is the explanation for the gelding I have that has not been taught much at all?

he turns to face me when on a lunge line too.

I am slowly getting him where I want him, but he has not had any NH or traditional training.[/QUOTE]

Because you have to train the horse to lunge.

They don’t just do it naturally. Indeed just the opposite. It’s why it’s such a PITA when a horse has been encouraged and rewarded for turning in all the time.

Think of lunging as “riding from the ground” with the added advantage of being able to watch the effect of training as it progresses.

Self-discipline, patience and concentration are required and are of the utmost importance at all times.

Your horse needs to be attentive and listening to your commands and you need to eliminate outside distractions, have the right equipment, stand in the correct place, use your whip and voice properly and concentrate on moving your horse forward and in a circle.

Horses turn in to face people naturally when they don’t know what they’re supposed to be doing as a sort of “help? What now?” . They "fall in though for other reasons. e.g. if they’re tired or the surface is say too deep or if they’re bored or if they’re evading.

Without seeing how you lunge though it’s difficult to be precise as to why your horse is turning towards you but from what you’ve posted, I’m thinking it’s because you haven’t correctly taught him to lunge.

Answers to the following would elicit better advice if that’s what you need.

What experience do you have with lunging?

What equipment are you using?

Where do you stand?

How are you using the whip?

At what stage does he turn in to face you?

[catknsn]

You can fix the “turning in” with long lines. That way you have both reins to teach the horse to stop on the circle.

I HATE that turning-in, joining-up crap too. I am endlessly trying to undo that on horses. I also find that a lot of these horses cannot walk on the longe. They think they are supposed to just zing around like maniacs.

Other pet peeve: walking BEHIND the person. It’s a pain to teach them to walk beside you after they’ve been taught to stay behind. You almost have to have a 2nd person to fix this, on some horses.

[blackstallion2]

I had a P trainer work with my little ones when I was sidelined with knee surgery and can tell you that some of it was “good”. But I have a 16 hand gelding who also learned to bolt from the lunge (as a youngster) that took a lot of retraining, and I can’t ground drive him for the turn and face issue. He had to be re-conditioned and rebuild his trust after too much “hide the hiney” game. Would he have been better or worse off without the training? I have to say my next generation was better off (the year after surgery when I didn’t use the P trainer).

Corrections, teach him to stand while you walk around him, for grooming, etc., re-build the trust that you can look at and touch his hiney without asking him to move his feet. Work a lot with the lunge whip over his back and hips and behind his legs (draping it, or rubbing him from the whip’s length).

[spotnnotfarm]

I use natural horsemanship, not PNH! The way I teach a horse to lunge is to disengage is hindquarters and face in when I ask only! If the horse disengages on his own he is quickly reminded that he is to go until I say stop. When I do stop him he is NEVER allowed to come into me. I feel that is disrespectful. My horse will lunge quite nicely. I think it is a difference of opinion on turning in/staying straight.

I will say the problem with natural horsemanship is that people are made to think they can train their own horse no matter what the problem is. I think this is terrible! I had a young horse where I did all the ground work and then sent him to a trainer for saddle breaking. I think the problems you are seeing is people without a clue training horses.

I also do not think a horse should have ground work drilled into them like many of the big ones think. I see the horses as bored and frustrated.

While I do practice NH, I also practice common horse sense. My horses are a joy to be around, calm and respectful.

[Alexie]

@MelantheLLC;3961899

I don’t care about P one way or the other, never saw any of it, but for pete’s sake do people think horses don’t learn this on their own?

every single horse i’ve taught to lunge from scratch has done this. and as i know for sure they haven’t been parellied or NHed in any way shape or form i think it’s safe to say that this horse just might be doing baby stuff and not parelli stuff

i’m not a fan of parelli, or much NH stuff tbh, but fair play to melanthellc, she has a good point

[LessonLearned]

[QUOTE=TB or not TB?;3965077]
I think some of you guys are confusing the issue. Of course a young horse can naturally want to stop and turn in/approach you on the lunge, that’s just how they operate. NH encourages and rewards this behavior, which is why it’s more difficult to reprogram them into not doing so.

Some folks seem to be implying that the OP thinks the horse is Parelli trained BECAUSE he turns in, which is not what she said. She said he has been Parelli trained because of the information she received from the former owner as well as many OTHER parelli behaviors, like the backing with the shaking rope. In this case, it’s a perfectly legit question to ask how to de-program this behavior.

Seriously, I don’t see anyone blaming NH for a horse’s natural tendancy to turn and face you; just being TRAINED for that.[/QUOTE]

Exactly, thank you. That is the issue. We know/were told this horse was parelli’d to be this way. He knows all of the cues, etc.

By way of an update, we got complete circles in both directions yesterday – followed by many, many, many good boy’s and scritchies.

By jove, he may be normal one day!!!

[monstrpony]

:rolleyes: Sigh.

The horse should only turn in when invited by the leader. If the horse turns in uninvited, the horse is taking over. If the person just stands there and heaves a great sigh of frustration, instead of clearly stating to the horse that the response is incorrect, then the horse has been allowed to take over leadership and things will go very, very rapidly downhill from there. This horse is boundary testing–it may be merely inquisitive, trying to get out of work, or it may be seeking dominance, hard to tell w/o seeing it first hand (and it is, in fact, probably the fault of the last handler, who thought it was “cute”). In any event, make up your mind where the boundaries are before you go to the barn that day, and make sure they are enforced. No need to be heavy handed, just get the job done. As little as possible, as much as necessary.

Not really fair to blame the horse, or the previous trainer, if you don’t understand what you are seeing.

Would strongly suggest a round pen until you get this sorted out (well, that and some education about horse behavior–from lots of observing people who understand it, and lots guided experience–not from a book or DVD ). Being attached by a longe line to a horse who may have an unpredictable reaction the first time you change the game plan and take on your role as leader, can be a tad dangerous.

Longing a horse with whom this has been correctly established is a no-brainer; they go where and how you direct them, stop when you lower your energy, and only turn in when invited.

[pines4equines]

Hay

Phoenix Farm said: “Good trainers are good trainers no matter the method–and people that don’t have the knowledge or ability to train shouldn’t be training anything, no matter what the method. Because ANY bad training can do irreparable harm to horses.”

Well said!

[Ajierene]

Interesting…how do you ‘un-racehorse’ train a horse off the track?

How do you ‘un-western’ a horse that went from a western rider to an English rider?

How do you ‘un-dressage’ a horse that went from a dressage rider to a pleasure rider?

How do you ‘un-jumper’ a horse that goes from a jumper home to a hunter home?

All these horses may or may not be trained correctly. The end result is that someone has trained them to listen to certain cues that a new owner may not want. Teaching a horse that has been taught via the Parelli method (whether or not that trainer was good) is exactly the same. You have to recondition the horse-which is a lot harder than starting a horse from scratch.

I have had to reschool countless horses off the track, as well as several horses that were trained incorrectly and needed to learn things like standing while being mounted is a good thing and leg can have directional meaning, not just mean ‘go faster’.

I am not a personal fan of Parelli, but to say it is Parelli’s fault that some horses are trained incorrectly is synonymous with saying it is Jane Savoe’s fault that not everyone that reads her website/buys her products has a Grand Prix dressage horse that has a perfect partnership with the rider.

[Sithly]

[QUOTE=Ajierene;3965576]
Interesting…how do you ‘un-racehorse’ train a horse off the track?

How do you ‘un-western’ a horse that went from a western rider to an English rider?

How do you ‘un-dressage’ a horse that went from a dressage rider to a pleasure rider?

How do you ‘un-jumper’ a horse that goes from a jumper home to a hunter home?

All these horses may or may not be trained correctly. The end result is that someone has trained them to listen to certain cues that a new owner may not want. [/QUOTE]

Shhhh! This thread is not for logic – it is for Parelli-bashing!

[Ridge_Runner]

@Bluey;3961426

Not defending NH at all, there is much to it I don’t like either, but we started many feral horses, that had never been touched before and they too were like that, overly watchy, would only face you and needed to be taught to go on on the line.

I would not blame NH for that, as it is really a normal way many not or little handled horses react to the people around them, until taught differently.

I agree. I don’t think of what this horse is doing at all as being due to NH training. Bad training maybe or lack of training.

[arena_run]

@CoolMeadows;3961406

If he’s young he’s got a good chance of being normal again. The best you can do for him right now is give him time off to be a horse with limited interaction. Groom him casually and ignore the weird staring at you. Try to hand graze him and ignore him at the end of the rope. I had a 3 year old come in who wouldn’t even handgraze because she was SO intent on having both eyes on me at all times… creepy! She had no idea how to just be a horse around humans and was way over stimulated.

I gave her several months of turnout with limited interaction other than some basic grooming a couple times a week, handgrazing and scritchies. She was so bad that if the wind blew the lead rope she’d run backwards and even flipped once (that STUPID jiggle the rope trick to make them back!) :mad:

And the “hide the hiney” game. GAH! Just wonderful for trying to get on one. Such fun when they keep spinning their butt away so they’ve got both eyes on you. Why anyone would want a horse so ready to react to the tiniest move is beyond me. Just dangerous.

To address the lunging issue: if you have to do it right away, I wouldn’t do it more than once or twice a week and while I’m not the biggest fan of side reins they help in this situation to keep the horse straight on the circle and discourage turning in. If you get a sense that he’s about to try it, use the lunge whip to drive him forward and praise him.

Give him some let down time and then treat him as a regular horse and allow him to decompress. Good luck. The ones who have had bad NH “training” are a nightmare.

That sounds like this person would have resulted in a horse w/bad training no matter the method used. Hide the heiney does not, repeat does not, have to result in a horse you can’t get on. Uh, it’s like any training… done right it results in a horse that knows the job and can do it - personality and ability pending. Done wrong… well, you already know one of those. sylvia

[arena_run]

[quote=LessonLearned;3965265]
Exactly, thank you. That is the issue. We know/were told this horse was parelli’d to be this way. He knows all of the cues, etc.
By way of an update, we got complete circles in both directions yesterday – followed by many, many, many good boy’s and scritchies.
By jove, he may be normal one day!!![/quote]

<g> That’s funny. The horse is already ‘normal’. Just 'cause he does or does not respond to cues you know does not mean he is or is not normal.

Normal horses learn through handling. This horse learned one way to be handled, and now he’s having to learn a new way to be handled.

He’s never been anything but a normal horse. sylvia

[Christine_Fgs]

Wow… well i think I’ve heard it all…

I am not a “horse whisperer” advocate at all… but what i’m ready here is full of!!! I train the regular way and I use Parelli…

None of my very well school “Parelli” style horses stop and look at me… they go until I ask them to stop… they turn when I ask, they don’t run me over, they don’t charge… and I usually am working with breeding stallions.

They are not afraid of ropes , jingles or any of that. Obviously people have not really worked with this system or understand them… and I was the biggest anti-Parelli style person you could meet. I think that they all have something to help with training horses and we should learn and take what works for us and our horse… but we cannot blame them if we are not successful with their system or someone elses.

As for that horse who cannot long rein because of the NH training if full of crap! I long rein horses regularly and I can tell you i’ve spent many a time with horse rearing… Has anyone check the teeth… Man the last horse I had doing that had two broken Wolfe teeth…

I think it is really bad form to blame Parelli or any of these forms. These horses have learnt bad habits whether they were trained Parelli, Monty Roberts or any of those so called NH… They learnt bad habits, now must learn differently.

I do both way and find that horses all respond differently and we as trainers / owners must adjust and get what we want out of our horses the best way possible…