WHY would anyone do this??? Or how to un-parelli a horse?

Ugh, threads like this bug me. Say I posted a thread saying, “WHY would anyone do this? My formerly-trained dressage horse is always getting behind the bit!” Despite the fact that rollkur is posted everywhere, everyone would jump on board and say that a properly trained dressage horse will not constantly be behind the bit.

First off, a properly trained Parelli horse will not just stand and face you and try to constantly stay with you. In my mind that’s passive dominance and not doing what you’re told. Parelli horses are taught that when they are sent out, they are to STAY out, at the same gait, until asked to slow down, break gait, or come in. Coming in and wanting to stay with you (and learning it’s on your terms) is actually a really useful tool when you have a flighty, spooky horse, but I’m guessing that all of the people bashing it here have never learned enough about Parelli to grasp the various applications or seen that method in action with someone that was actually skillful. Sending a horse out and keeping them out is about obedience and clear signals. I’ve encountered green horses that were never touched by Parelli and do the things you’ve described. Not saying that Parelli is perfect – it certainly isn’t – but neither is the h/j world, dressage world, eventing, etc. There are a lot of positives to the things Parelli teaches. Have you ever gone to a clinic? Been around someone knowledgeable in it but not fanatic? I do h/j but trained with an h/j trainer in high school who started working with a Parelli trainer because she had a very unsafe horse. I was exposed to it, and took lessons with my probably unsafe gelding. I didn’t agree with a number of things, but I did agree with many others, and it made a big difference. I probably wouldn’t have said gelding today if it weren’t for the methods I learned during those lessons. They were concepts that my otherwise successful h/j trainers hadn’t focused on.

Let me give you a comparison. Say you are an h/j rider and get on a well-trained dressage horse. Chances are you will piss that horse off more than once, because what you are asking for and what you get can be fairly different from dressage to h/j. The aids are different in some ways. So said h/j rider would probably do some research into the other discipline and discover what it is that they are doing that tells the horse to respond as so. Probably appropriate for this situation too. NOT SAYING that the horse is trained well, I don’t know the situation, but I’m just saying before jumping to conclusions about why a person might get involved with Parelli and bashing the practice, why not consider some of the variables at play here? Not to mention that Parelli is ONE method among many different types of “natural horsemanship”, some more effective than others. In my mind, most of them, when done well, don’t have that much difference between those principles applied in commen-sense horsemanship. So to think that Parelli teaches the horse to constantly stay by your side, even when told to go out on a circle, is not accurate.

Agreed Christine, I’ve seen horses with NH backgrounds in side reins, draw reins, long lined… why would that background make traditional groundwork obselete? My gelding is a jumper and has also done some Parelli. I guarantee you wouldn’t know unless I told you so, but the people who knew him before and after can tell you it made a positive difference.

And Parelli is not the only method to use “wiggling the rope” to back up.

[QUOTE=Sithly;3966064]
Shhhh! This thread is not for logic – it is for Parelli-bashing! ;)[/QUOTE]

He he, that’s right, I forgot…carry on…I will read for amusement only from now on.

I’ll admit I haven’t read to the end of this thread but I had to jump in here.

Why would you even want your horse on the lunge when asked to halt to stop and turn into you??? I don’t want my horse looking at me for direction I want him to be listening to me. He can’t see me when I’m riding him but he sure can hear me.

On the lunge when I say whoa my horses stop and stand straight, I NEVER allow my horses to turn into me on the lunge, ever. They stand there until I walk up and either switch directions or walk them off. Anyone that has a clue on how to properly lunge a horse will tell you this.

Lunging can be a very beneficial training session when done properly. It’s only use is not for tiring a horse, the old masters used it frequently.

Thanks for the wonderful info…

I just bought (like three hours ago accutally) a 10 year old horse. Her old mom started the P (complete and utter crud) stuff to her. I can’t get her to lunge (we were trying to for the pre-buy.) Like at all. She doesn’t even make a half a circle before she turns to me. :mad: Is there any suggestion that anybody has? None of my other horses know P and I don’t care to learn it.
Thanks so much!!

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hmmm interesting thread.

I don’t do Parelli training, though I know some people who do. However, I do have a horse that commits two of the sins mentioned here - he’ll turn in when I stop him on the lunge AND he’ll follow behind me. Of course, he’s blind and deaf on the right side and 80% blind on the right … so he literally can’t see me or hear me if lunging to the right and has to look in to see what I want. He’ll swing his head in to question and I just send him back out if I want him to keep going :wink: And walking behind me - he’s learned to listen for/feel my footfalls and walk where I am.

Of course, at any moment I can ask him to walk next to me, or stop him straight on the lunge line, and he will. But I personally like to have them turn in and face when I’ve stopped them. I’ll have to watch more but I think most people around here do have them turn in on the lunge. I also invite him to come in to me when I’m ready to reward him, and don’t walk up to him. Of course I CAN do so, and if he ever takes a step in without an invite he gets sent out and around again, but he knows “come here” and the hand signal. I can get him to come to me from anywhere in the arena just by saying his name and “come here” with the hand signal.

The lead rope thing - well, that’s also like horses that bolt or spook with a whip. Someone is missing the point in the training at some point. It’s not supposed to be the rope, or the whip, or whatever - it’s supposed to be the intent and energy you drive through the rope or whip. I can stand next to my horse and crack the whip or whatever - but unless I INTEND for him to actually move, through body language, etc., he’s not moving. Same with the shake the lead rope to back up thing - if the horse will back up at the slightest movement of the rope than the person training has missed the point completely and didn’t do it right. That’s one problem with video type training systems - it doesn’t do a good enough job explaining the subtleties of “talking” with a horse.

[QUOTE=Montie_mom;4700909]
I just bought (like three hours ago accutally) a 10 year old horse. Her old mom started the P (complete and utter crud) stuff to her. I can’t get her to lunge (we were trying to for the pre-buy.) Like at all. She doesn’t even make a half a circle before she turns to me. :mad: Is there any suggestion that anybody has? None of my other horses know P and I don’t care to learn it.
Thanks so much!![/QUOTE]

In the PP system you train a horse to disengage it’s hindend first.
You teach that first with the horse standing there, looking at it’s butt and then swinging at it and the whacking it to move over.
Then progress to do that on a small circle and then as in longing, but it is not called longing.:wink:

Now, most other disciplines don’t really want their horse to disengage their hind end every time it stops on the longe line, so there is the difference.

If you have a horse that does, you need to retrain it so it won’t do that, which most people DON’T want, being counterproductive to most other we do with horses, unless they are working in the PP system, where they don’t care about any other than control and that disengaging all the time evidently gives it to them.:slight_smile:

If you keep the horse moving and on a small circle, where you have closer control, you can ask your horse to stop and go and stop and go slowly and so keep it stopping straight.
Ignore the sideways stops and try to avoid them by not looking at the horse when you stop it and barely stopping at first and going back forward before it can turn on you, all very easy and slow, because the hind end disengaging was taught as a hurry up movement, as “get your hiney out of the way!”
Change your training focus to easy and slow.

Don’t get frustrated, the horse already did get frustrated before finally learning to stop and turn and now you are confusing it again when you don’t want that.

Ignore the behaviours you don’t want, try not to set the horse to do them, even when they are automatic, as that one is and eventually those unwanted behaviors will fade, especially if you teach new ones to replace them.:yes:

[QUOTE=veebug22;3966138]

Coming in and wanting to stay with you (and learning it’s on your terms) is actually a really useful tool when you have a flighty, spooky horse, but I’m guessing that all of the people bashing it here have never learned enough about Parelli to grasp the various applications or seen that method in action with someone that was actually skillful. [/QUOTE]

This-- the turn, face me and put all four feet on the ground, or move your hind end sideways rather than up or forward at a dead run-- this stuff IS useful for the reactive, physically volatile horse.

But not all of them are this way! I think PP and others missed the point that while their methods and demos work well and make sense for young or untouched stock, it does not apply to type of horses their clients actually own. The recalcitrant middle-aged QH cross gelding wants to stand around rather than work, for example, will not fit into a PP program premised on standing still as the goal.

I think the owners may be afraid of the moving their horses do under saddle. A lazy horse with a work ethic problem will get off his a$$ to buck or bolt if he thinks it will get him to Miller Time faster. But the endless asking him to submit on the ground will make just the smallest of dents in this problem.

In any case, it may be the owners mistaking the cause for their horse’s bucking or whatever. But the experts owed it to their clients to correctly decipher the cause.

[QUOTE=LessonLearned;3961353]
All he wants to do is stay with you and after about a 1/2 circle he turns to face you.

How do you undo this kind of training???[/QUOTE]

ride him on the lunge and use the outside rein to keep him from turning in…

he can figure it out

Tamara in TN

[QUOTE=shade;3966812]

On the lunge when I say whoa my horses stop and stand straight, I NEVER allow my horses to turn into me on the lunge, ever. They stand there until I walk up and either switch directions or walk them off. Anyone that has a clue on how to properly lunge a horse will tell you this.

well,it is possible thru hand and body and voice to have a horse go forward,stop, turn toward you (and you can determine the steps),go away (and you determine the steps),step in toward you <x> steps …back up facing you or along the rail <x> steps,reverse toward the rail, reverse away from the rail and all sorts of things while free lunging…

now if you are always constrained with a lunge line you do not have these freedoms in training…it is not so much about being 'proper" as using you body to teach all sorts of things…

Tamara in TN

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[QUOTE=Montie_mom;4700909]
I just bought (like three hours ago accutally) a 10 year old horse. Her old mom started the P (complete and utter crud) stuff to her. I can’t get her to lunge (we were trying to for the pre-buy.) Like at all. She doesn’t even make a half a circle before she turns to me. :mad: Is there any suggestion that anybody has? None of my other horses know P and I don’t care to learn it.
Thanks so much!![/QUOTE]

This is a very simple fix and has nothing to do with Parelli. All you need to do is give the voice command you have chosen for ‘move on’ or ‘keep going’ and ‘wave’ the longe whip at her - don’t crack it or touch her with it, just remind her that she goes until you tell her to stop.

The horse is basically trying to get out of work by coming in. She is not being bad, per se, she’s not being naughty, she was just taught by her previous owner that when she turns in she gets treats/gets out of work. Get the Parelli prejudice out of your head - anyone can end up teaching horses things like this and I have seen plenty of it with novice owners who don’t even know who Parelli is.

Exactly. Goodness, anyone who knows anything about training, just does it. If the horse has had some different training previously then you just change the training techniques. Not normally much of a big deal, or never has been with all the horses I’ve trained.

As for turning in, every one of my homebred/homeraised youngsters have done this the first time I have taken them to learn lunging. You just move them on and within a couple of times round, they understand that turning in and stopping is not what you want and for any who do not get it right off the bat, just use two lunge reins and you’ll find this no longer becomes a problem. It’s simple for any trainer worth their salt and I’m struggling to see what is so difficult about the OPs situation. :confused:

[QUOTE=Cloverbarley;4701362]
Exactly. Goodness, anyone who knows anything about training, just does it. If the horse has had some different training previously then you just change the training techniques. Not normally much of a big deal, or never has been with all the horses I’ve trained.

As for turning in, every one of my homebred/homeraised youngsters have done this the first time I have taken them to learn lunging. You just move them on and within a couple of times round, they understand that turning in and stopping is not what you want. It’s simple for any trainer worth their salt and I’m struggling to see what is so difficult about the OPs situation. :confused:[/QUOTE]

It can become a little bit of a problem if a horse has been parellified to death, where that is their default mechanism when they don’t quite know what you want, that hiding their hiney and running backwards.
Some horses just were not taught that properly and they are way overreactive and you have to get them over it.

I agree, getting them over it should not be that much of a problem and if it is, get help from a trainer.:yes:

[QUOTE=Bluey;4701370]
It can become a little bit of a problem if a horse has been parellified to death, where that is their default mechanism when they don’t quite know what you want, that hiding their hiney and running backwards.
Some horses just were not taught that properly and they are way overreactive and you have to get them over it.

I agree, getting them over it should not be that much of a problem and if it is, get help from a trainer.:yes:[/QUOTE]

To me, that’s the same thing as saying a horse was ‘racehorsed to death’ because when you tighten the reins he goes faster, or if you are practicing two-point he wants to break from a trot to a canter.

Or a horse that has been ‘westerned to death’ because the minute he feels the least bit of pressure he stops so suddenly you go flying 15 feet infront of him.

I have worked with quite a few ‘horses with issues’ in my younger, crazier days and have never found one to be the fault of the training system, but the trainer. That includes plenty of novice ‘trainers’ that had no clue what they were doing. A little patience and redirection and the horse figures it out.

Not really, just flip to long reining them for a spell if they do this. It shouldn’t take them long to “un” learn running backwards.

Some horses just were not taught that properly and they are way overreactive and you have to get them over it.

Yes I agree, so in cases such as over reaction or poor training, just treat them like youngsters and start from scratch again. The beauty of horses is that although they are not the sharpest tools in the box, they are quite adaptable.

I agree, getting them over it should not be that much of a problem and if it is, get help from a trainer.:yes:

That’s what I would suggest to the OP; get a trainer in to start the horse properly. :slight_smile:

This is neither impossible to fix, nor the end of the world.
You need to work on your communication. IF he’s been correctly taught, he understands not just pressure at the hip but at the shoulder, and you can keep him moving and out on the circle by applying this pressure with your longe whip.
Also teach the horse to stand in place at the word “whoa”, this can be done at the horse’s side, and then on the circle use it to teach the horse that stopping and turning isn’t what you want.
I’ve got a “parelli reject” too. She will go in circles until she drops, for some reason, and they didn’t seem to realize that the idea isn’t to just run around, but to actually do transition on the line. Odd, but that’s what they do.
I also suggest a higher power: clicker training and treats.

The first time I worked with her she was always backing up or turning to face me. I felt like crying. They teach people to make a horse NOT go forward and that’s almost a sin to me. I had someone walk at her side while I was in the middle, at her head and “whoa”, halt, click, treat. Later we worked on transitions up and down, and really, you’d never know she was taught all that useless nonsense.

Of course I will admit, she’s very polite on the ground, but otoh, I think the person who had her really was doing a decent job on trying to play games and not losing them.

YMMV, but that’s how I did it. Honestly, I’ve had worse retreads. I’d rather fix this problem than something yanked and spanked into stiff/spooky tension.

Have hope, this isn’t the end of the world. It’s just a training challenge.
She’s now forward, and pretty unflappable on trail and low fences out on my little cross country set up (some natural logs on a back 20 acres up on a hill, nothing dramatic, but truly fun because we are so high up). I just consider it a blip looking back.

[QUOTE=LessonLearned;3961353]
I probably shouldn’t blame JUST parelli, but we know for a fact that the horse had some sort of “natural horsemanship” training.

A friend and I are working with a young QH that another friend wanted to sell. He is sweet and willing, but knows nothing. EXCEPT the whole “turn and face” thing in response to any stimulus. Now we are eventers but really think this guy will be a low level kids horse or even trail buddy, but since he knows nothing we wanted to start working on lunging to make him learn about going forward. No dice. All he wants to do is stay with you and after about a 1/2 circle he turns to face you.

How do you undo this kind of training???[/QUOTE]

Do you KNOW that the horse has ever been taught to lunge? If it hasn’t, it’s natural reaction to not understanding what you want is to stop, turn and face you.

I got my horse when he was 12, broke to death-it would never have occurred to me that he wouldn’t have been trained on the lunge. When we did his PPE, vet put the lunge line on and he did exactly as you describe-a step or two, then turn and face, looking for direction. We very quickly realized that he simply did not know how to lunge. He was never trained in NH that the seller knew of. He simply did not know what was being asked of him. He wasn’t being resistant and he didn’t need “undoing.”

If he’s young and green, it’s possible that he was never taught how to lunge properly. Most horses trained in NH will still lunge if they know how.

Having used NH (NOT Parelli, just common sense!) in addition to more traditional training methods, I find it to be very useful in building a horse’s confidence. A horse exhibiting the behavior you describe is not confident. I agree with the poster who said round penning could be a big benefit.

This is a good point, of course, most greenies do this, too.:slight_smile:

Oh what sunday fun!!!

I don’t get “join up” but I have very successfully included Monty’s tools for basic equine obedience, courtesy, and focus into my box, which essentially all revolve around horse staying out of your space. Something I have always been taught to enforce, but found he had the best method for establishing space bounderies.

Any trainer with any sense in any discipline starts a horse based on the cues they naturally receive from the horse, this awareness of body signals and equine psyche, sorry, is not the sole dominion of the NH training philosophy. It is the dominion of those born with that mysterious inner equine sense, and while we spend our lives trying to teach others what we essentially can’t put into words ourselves, it is not a tangible lesson that can be patented, marketed, put in a box and sold with a 30 day guarentee.

The inflated PP/NH system has done that. What began as some great tips in easy to understand language by Lyons and Roberts decades ago has evolved into a discipline that shares no goals with any other discipline I know of. The goal of the race horse trainer, the dressage trainer, the hj trainer, the western trainer, heck, even a vaulting trainer, is to teach the horse to balance while traveling with the weight of a rider. Where each discipline takes that is where it begins to differ, but the common, driving goal is to teach the horse balance under saddle.

Once you’ve established manners, attention, and a good dose of respect what is the point??? Get on and ride. Horses do not need endless lectures in ground manners, they don’t need 16 levels of acheivement to learn the basic mannerisms put on in the first 30 days of training anywhere else. This new system, which banks off obscuring age-old wisdom to the point where the essential benefits of it no longer even exist, seems to accomplish little more than keeping horses in a perpetual state of immaturity.

I really thought Hide the Hiney was a COTH coin to describe a frequent annoying action. Really? This is actually a training term? Or one of those “games”? Clue #1: The use PC terms clearly developed to attract, yet not offend, a certain market demographic is a sure sign they don’t have the horse’s priorities on the same level as their own. “Avoid the Ass” is pretty much the first thing we learn as young horsemen.

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—“I really thought Hide the Hiney was a COTH coin to describe a frequent annoying action. Really? This is actually a training term? Or one of those “games”? Clue #1: The use PC terms clearly developed to attract, yet not offend, a certain market demographic is a sure sign they don’t have the horse’s priorities on the same level as their own. “Avoid the Ass” is pretty much the first thing we learn as young horsemen.”—

“Hide your hiney” is not a COTH term, but what Pat Parelli was saying time and again when explaining some of his seven games, honestly.:lol:

Goes along with your own body language, to look at the horse’s “hiney”, bow to it a little, sling your whip, here “carrot stick” at it and if it still doesn’t move it over, whack him one or a few.

Horses catch on quickly and anticipate, if you even look at them, they move it, thank you.:wink:
You have to learn to be very precise with your own body and even then, horses will anticipate and scoot at the slightest thought that you may ask them.:yes: