WHY would anyone do this??? Or how to un-parelli a horse?

[dags]

Just goes to show moderation in everything.

You can teach a horse flying changes. You can then drill the horse to death with flying changes and next thing you know you have flying changes everywhere you don’t want them.

Anticipatory is not how I want my horses. Intuitive, yes. I want them to work with me, not just react from me. I want to give them a basic understanding of what the end goal is - WHY we are doing what we are doing, it’s not just “because I said so”. That is training upon which real partnerships are based.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=dags;4701614]
Just goes to show moderation in everything.

You can teach a horse flying changes. You can then drill the horse to death with flying changes and next thing you know you have flying changes everywhere you don’t want them.

Anticipatory is not how I want my horses. Intuitive, yes. I want them to work with me, not just react from me. I want to give them a basic understanding of what the end goal is - WHY we are doing what we are doing, it’s not just “because I said so”. That is training upon which real partnerships are based.[/QUOTE]

I call that “the horse telling on you” by being overly watchy and alert, not relaxed and ready to work with you.
That kind of horse jumpy to handle used to be the sign of a bad trainer, one that don’t teach, but intimidates.

The world sure has changed, as today many teach intimidation, in the name of control.

Like you say, there is a happy medium, but since many clinicians handle novices and overhorsed owners and just for a couple of days at the time, they are handicapped to start with.
There is no excuse in my book for that kind of overhandling and not teaching properly, but I guess they are the ones making the money, so what do I know.:no:

[Anselcat]

Stopped in at a show just this morning for a bit. Watched a man trying to lunge a little chestnut horse. Horse kept turning in to look at him – because his body language was completely blocking horse’s forward motion (his body in front of horse’s shoulder, raised hand trying to ‘pull’ horse along).

Horse was actually being a good boy, IMHO, not rushing past his handler who was in an ambiguous position at best.

[Beverley]

@dags;4701496

Once you’ve established manners, attention, and a good dose of respect what is the point??? Get on and ride.

Bingo! Just yesterday, while I was working one of mine in the arena, another boarder worked one of hers in the round pen. I guess she thinks it’s cool to do all sorts of stupid pet tricks, stop and change direction with ‘body language’ and etc. But sadly, this horse just goes around stiff as a post, propping on the shoulder, and handler seems impressed with herself but the poor horse has never learned how to use itself properly. Not surprising to see when she saddled and rode that the horse continued to be stiff. She did a number of leg stretches and stuff before and after riding- and the horse is very well mannered, but aargh, basics missing!

[Woodland]

[QUOTE=LessonLearned;3961353]
I probably shouldn’t blame JUST parelli, but we know for a fact that the horse had some sort of “natural horsemanship” training.

A friend and I are working with a young QH that another friend wanted to sell. He is sweet and willing, but knows nothing. EXCEPT the whole “turn and face” thing in response to any stimulus. Now we are eventers but really think this guy will be a low level kids horse or even trail buddy, but since he knows nothing we wanted to start working on lunging to make him learn about going forward. No dice. All he wants to do is stay with you and after about a 1/2 circle he turns to face you.

How do you undo this kind of training???[/QUOTE]

With a big whip :lol:

[Cherry]

Did the original poster and her friend ever figure out how to teach this young QH to lunge???

I just had to ask–it’s almost been a whole year now…

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=Beverley;4702629]
Bingo! Just yesterday, while I was working one of mine in the arena, another boarder worked one of hers in the round pen. I guess she thinks it’s cool to do all sorts of stupid pet tricks, stop and change direction with ‘body language’ and etc. But sadly, this horse just goes around stiff as a post, propping on the shoulder, and handler seems impressed with herself but the poor horse has never learned how to use itself properly. Not surprising to see when she saddled and rode that the horse continued to be stiff. She did a number of leg stretches and stuff before and after riding- and the horse is very well mannered, but aargh, basics missing![/QUOTE]

Exactly, very poor basics and NO basic technical knowledge.
Tried to tell the PP people and was not successful, told “we teach all that at the higher levels”.

Well, they had people from the higher levels there, including Mr Pat Parelli himself, clearly demonstrating they didn’t know.

I say, some don’t know how little they know and worse, are not going to learn.:no:

You can see that demonstrated every day on RFD-TV, with those TV clinicians.
As much as they know, they are also missing so much, just as you describe there.

I think this comes from being self taught and so proud of it, they never learned to listen to what others have to say.

[AnotherRound]

@LessonLearned;3961353

I probably shouldn’t blame JUST parelli, but we know for a fact that the horse had some sort of “natural horsemanship” training.

A friend and I are working with a young QH that another friend wanted to sell. He is sweet and willing, but knows nothing. EXCEPT the whole “turn and face” thing in response to any stimulus. Now we are eventers but really think this guy will be a low level kids horse or even trail buddy, but since he knows nothing we wanted to start working on lunging to make him learn about going forward. No dice. All he wants to do is stay with you and after about a 1/2 circle he turns to face you.

How do you undo this kind of training???

Hi, OP - I don’t know how far away this thread has gotten from the original post, but I thought I would offer my response to your initial post. What you describe actually sounds like every OTTB I’v ever gotton off the track - none of them knew how to lunge, and they did exactly what you describe, and it didn’t take any parelli training for them to do it, it just sounds to me like how a horse who has never been lunged before responds to a first time lunging lesson.

At least based on his behaviour, you could approproach it that way. He needs to be trained to lunge. As for other Parelli cues, as someone astutely pointed out, he is young, he was taught cues, he can be untaught the cues. Actually, teaching him something else is the best bet. The unsued cues if not responded to, or untaught just fall by the wayside, as with any previous handling problems a horse has.

Good luck, perservere, and push on past whatever it is, I say.

[CoolMeadows]

Woah, old thread. I also wonder how the OP did in the end.

Have to disagree with the OTTb comment. Maybe 15% of the ones I’ve known will do that the first time they’re lunged. If you’re on the ball, they won’t even get all the way turned. Of those, I’d guess 5% will need more than one lunge session to get it. Most will walk/trot on the lunge like a pro in under 20 minutes. Smart horses!

[7th_Wave]

I happened upon this very negative post in reference to Parelli training.
I have the deep pleasure of expanding my knowledge of natural horsemanship and not being stuck at a low level of natural training. I think that this is probably the most damaging step of many people who refer to the natural form of training. Reference is often made to 'natural training ’ without the necessary knowledge.
I am truly pleased with the progress my horse has made, especially when I made the commitment to stick with it. I AM PROUD TO BE LEARNING PARELLI NATURAL HORSEMANSHIP and I am sure that I will keep learning for years to come. The partnership is growing ever stronger! Thank you, Pat and Linda Parelli!

[digihorse]

advertising troll

[clanter]

@digihorse

advertising troll

7th Wave or Parelli training??

[keysfins]

@clanter

7th Wave or Parelli training??

BOTH!!

[muffintop]

I’m sure i’ll get slammed by my comment but I don’t know why everyone has such a problem with the natural horsemanship WAY of training. There are 4 OTTB’s at my barn who have been trained in the Parelli method and I have to say, they are very well trained. Maybe the Parelli’s aren’t great, I have no idea, I don’t follow them, but they seem to know how to train a horse from what I’ve seen.

[BigMama1]

@Saidapal

I’ve done a lot of work with my horses in NH - painted with a very broad brush (don’t even mention the P’s to me and I don’t jiggle no darn ropes).

Very smart horses learn to turn and face you to get out of work and will use it as an evasion. Push him on. Don’t be afraid to let him know the rules have changed. He might be a little confused at first but as long as your consistent he’ll get it. He might even get mad and have a temper tantrum. Oh well.

This is my horse to a T. For him this behaviour on the lunge had nothing to do with NH and everything to do with getting out of work. I has to be quite firm with him with it happens and use a long enough lunge whip that I could actually tap him with it to make him go forward. After a few times of hauling the whip this way my horse just stopped trying this particular trick with me and lunges just fine, but will try it any time someone new lunges him.

[sorrelfilly721]

@LessonLearned

. All he wants to do is stay with you and after about a 1/2 circle he turns to face you.

How do you undo this kind of training???

UGH - I looked at a horse that was for sale that did EXACTLY this. It was a Parelli victim as well. I passed on it. Too much trouble to undo for me.

[Scribbler]

@7th Wave

I happened upon this very negative post in reference to Parelli training.
I have the deep pleasure of expanding my knowledge of natural horsemanship and not being stuck at a low level of natural training. I think that this is probably the most damaging step of many people who refer to the natural form of training. Reference is often made to 'natural training ’ without the necessary knowledge.
I am truly pleased with the progress my horse has made, especially when I made the commitment to stick with it. I AM PROUD TO BE LEARNING PARELLI NATURAL HORSEMANSHIP and I am sure that I will keep learning for years to come. The partnership is growing ever stronger! Thank you, Pat and Linda Parelli!

Yeah well. If you actually read the whole post rather than digging up a zombie post to puff the P system, you’d have a more nuanced response.

The problem is how all these systems are marketed to newbie ammies with no feel for a horse who create more problems than they cause with techniques that are quite forceful and intimidating. Like shanking with the haltet repeatedly.

If you can’t see and explain the difference between NH done right and done wrong then probably your word on the topic doesn’t carry much weight.

[Kinda_Kooky]

Am I the only one that enjoys thread resurrections?

The constant disengagement of hindquarters is counter productive to many; as is the rope wiggling, lead rope jerking, stick harassment.

Please carry on, I love it when the Parelli Defense Team comes to Coth Town.

[candyappy]

@7th Wave

I happened upon this very negative post in reference to Parelli training.
I have the deep pleasure of expanding my knowledge of natural horsemanship and not being stuck at a low level of natural training. I think that this is probably the most damaging step of many people who refer to the natural form of training. Reference is often made to 'natural training ’ without the necessary knowledge.
I am truly pleased with the progress my horse has made, especially when I made the commitment to stick with it. I AM PROUD TO BE LEARNING PARELLI NATURAL HORSEMANSHIP and I am sure that I will keep learning for years to come. The partnership is growing ever stronger! Thank you, Pat and Linda Parelli!

If it works for you that is great. Many of us have a great relationship with our horses too, but we don’t need all the baggage and unnecessary stuff that PP sells to make that happen.

[Scribbler]

@Kinda Kooky

Am I the only one that enjoys thread resurrections?

The constant disengagement of hindquarters is counter productive to many; as is the rope wiggling, lead rope jerking, stick harassment.

Please carry on, I love it when the Parelli Defense Team comes to Coth Town.

The disengagement of hindquarters seems to be a staple of most of the ground work schools, not just Parelli. It immobilizes the horse by making him throw all his weight on the forehand.

I don’t want my horse to stop by falling on the forehand.

I want the horse to move the hindquarters by being engaged behind, that is to do lateral moves with lightness up front.

The result is that these days even if I try to disengage the hindquarters when maresy is a bit fresh in hand, what i get is lovely shoulder in on a circle, and moments of passage. Or a super collected canter in hand on a ten meter circle. These don’t unfortunately translate to work under saddle, but she is now very athletic on the rare moments she acts up in hand.

I assume disengage the hindquarters is a way to get green or unbalanced or downhill horses to slew around and not be able to move. But it isn’t something I’d want to emphasize, and it isn’t something that is in fact effective once the horse has learned to move the hind quarters while being engaged.

And for me, anything you do on the ground has to contribute to better work under saddle, not detract from it. Has to build desirable skills from the get-go.

I train a lot of lateral work in hand, but not in the NH way.