Why would horse step toe-then-heel?

[IPEsq]

So the bigger shoe should allow the foot to spread more in that it should open up the heel and allow the foot to grow in a more natural direction. The flare this horse has is in the toe pillars, which were growing way over the shoes at 4 weeks. I would agree that this horse doesn’t seem to have flaring at the quarters (where flaring can be common), and he does probably need more room all around in conjunction with a better trim. Summary - larger shoes are probably a great idea!

Setting the shoe back can improve breakover but if they are set back under a too long toe, then the shoe is just kind of in the “normal” spot. This horse might need a set back or rockered toe but also needs some toe to come off. But the larger shoes might help somewhat with the hoof growing more in the right direction.

[J-Lu]

Got my pristine hardcover edition of Horseshoeing Theory and Hoof Care today. $6 on eBay. It’s 1977 and much has changed, but the book looks good and I can’t wait to go through it!

[Dee-Vee]

Just to help with education, take a look at your own horse’s hooves and compare them with the pictures you have posted of the other horse…particularly hairline, direction of tubules, length of frog, heels, and bars.

Every horse is different, and that is the beauty. The comparison may help you to understand what is working on your own horse and what could be going on this horse.

Wonderful that the owner is keen to sort out the problem with his horse, and you eager to help and learn.

Best of luck.

[J-Lu]

Thank you! On your recommendation, I’ll take the same pictures on my horse’s front feet and compare. I hadn’t thought of that. My horse has 2 fairly different front feet but he’s been sound for 8 years in regular riding/training.

Thank you!

The relatively few constants here are “barn family” and we help each other out as we can, even with non-horse stuff. I’m just doing my part.

[J-Lu]

@IPEsq

So the bigger shoe should allow the foot to spread more in that it should open up the heel and allow the foot to grow in a more natural direction. The flare this horse has is in the toe pillars, which were growing way over the shoes at 4 weeks. I would agree that this horse doesn’t seem to have flaring at the quarters (where flaring can be common), and he does probably need more room all around in conjunction with a better trim. Summary - larger shoes are probably a great idea!

Setting the shoe back can improve breakover but if they are set back under a too long toe, then the shoe is just kind of in the “normal” spot. This horse might need a set back or rockered toe but also needs some toe to come off. But the larger shoes might help somewhat with the hoof growing more in the right direction.

Thank you. The last two cycles were rocker shoes, including the images I posted. This horse didn’t respond to set-back rocker shoes, which despite the length of the toe should have affected his way of going more. The farrier doesn’t think that all horses conform to the “proper angle” based on the shape of the bottom of the hoof, how the horse moves and the conformation. He noted that wild horses don’t often have the “proper angle” and his client horses may need an angle that deviates to make them comfortable. He’s been doing this a long time and believes that experience goes a long way towards making a horse sound. I agree. He’s a sport horse farrier, his clients would complain or leave him if he was so wrong.

[CanteringCarrot]

I find this thread interesting because hoof stuff is of interest to me. While not all wild horses have “proper angles” by text book definition, they often grow the proper angle for their body, if that makes sense. Whether it’s growing a more upright hoof to suit their conformation (like Iberians) or growing a slight flair to compensate for something (seen this this with barefoot horses and hock spavins, for example). It is interesting stuff.

I’ve gotten into more barefoot rehab stuff after seeing such a benefit in my own horse, who, quite frankly had his hooves trashed by “reputable” farriers. It’s crazy how some hooves “fix themselves” you can also see this on the Rockley Farm Blog if you’re interested.

Not saying barefoot for this or all horses, just another interesting read if it interests you. Obviously you have faith in your farrier, and I’m not suggesting anything on that matter.

Would love if you keep this thread updated with pictures and video of the hoof landing. I love seeing stuff like this change and get better.

[JB]

@J-Lu

The farrier doesn’t think that all horses conform to the “proper angle” based on the shape of the bottom of the hoof, how the horse moves and the conformation.

They absolutely have a proper angle relative to their hoof and leg conformation. The “proper” angle is the one that makes P1-3 a straight line when the horse is standing square and weighting each leg evenly.

The resulting angle of the hoof, whether it’s 40* or 55* is a by-product of making that alignment.

Forcing feet to any average angle causes harm. But also, saying “well he’s not going to be 45*” as an excuse for leaving long toes is also causing harm.

There are lots and lots and lots of horses being done by clients who don’t complain because they don’t know what feed should look like, and the feet haven’t gotten bad enough, for long enough, to start causing problems, OR, there are problems, but the hocks are the symptom so they just inject

Experience isn’t useful if it’s the wrong experiences.

Ultimately, how these feet start looking will tell the true story. Words are just words, and can be mis-interpreted and/or mis-used in translation.

[J-Lu]

Obviously what you say is correct but I think you’re reading a lot into what I posted.

[IPEsq]

The horse with hock spavins doesn’t have a flare to compensate. They have a flare because they are loading the foot unevenly due to the bony issue above. An upright foot on an Iberian would have proper angles because of the conformation. An upright foot on a horse conformed to have sloping pasterns, not so much—would maybe be a club foot in that case.

[CanteringCarrot]

Is that not what I said?

The horse with hock spavins has a flare because of the spavin. Or you might see a flare as a “natural” lateral support that the hoof has made on its own. This can happen.

I don’t get what you’re saying or how it is different? The upright foot on an Iberian would be proper if it matches the conformation…I am not arguing that. It’s very obvious that an upright foot would not woek on a horse with sloping patterns. All I said was that the hoof often grows to suit the horses conformation and/or as a result of ailments if it is allowed to. Basically why some wild horses may have hooves that aren’t all the sake or “picture perfect” but functional for that horse.

[J-Lu]

UPDATE!!!

This QH has been on-and-off lame for 1.5 years now. The owners have done what I’ve long suggested. Radiographs all around by the regular vet, and the Specialist (equine podiatrist) is coming out with the radiographs in hand to work with the farrier on Thursday. My horse is the appt right before and is sedated, so I’ll watch that whole engagement.

This QH has been on and off again lame for 1.5 years. sometimes irrespective of riding. I’m so happy that the owner is engaging vets and farriers at the same time. I’ll note that the one female in the equation has been minimized, which sucks. But that’s a large reason why the horse hasn’t been adequately worked up in 1.5 years.