Wicker Governess Pony Cart-question

Hello all-

I am not a driving person but we do breed welsh ponies and the university i go to is primarily an ag college. its old, and it was based off of agriculture. Back in the day, one of the presidents was very fond of driving horses and his children had a wicker governess pony cart to fit a small pony.

I was rumaging through some of the old abandoned barns the other day and found some really really old carts just rotting away. One of them was the wicker pony cart. Its in some dyer need of help. the wicker is all broken and its needs restoration. I am currently trying to get the university to seperate with it so i can take it home and restore it back to what it originally was.

They are letting me name my price. What is the bare minimum price a cart with that type of reputation and condition would go for? Im in contact with the big wigs since it is university property and i am more than confident they dont have a clue that the cart or any of the other carraiges in the barns…even exist!

Thanks for the help in advance!

If it is merely a run-of-the-mill cart, in poor condition it is probably worth only $200-$300. If it is a Walbourne and Riker and has the maker’s plate, it would be worth about $500$600 in the condition you mention.

Please be aware it can be very expensive to have the wicker re-woven. It would be best to scout around for a craftsman who could do this of work to spec, and get a price first before you give the college a sale price.

I would also add you need to check the wheels as well for dryrot, and the axle ends for wear, plus the hub boxings (since this is an old cart it probably has common axles which use grease rather than ball bearings). Also check all the miter points on the shafts and splinter bat, and all bolts for rust which could cause them to fatigue and break. Factor in all these components against the cost of about $1,200 for a new (or newly restored) high quality, mfr plated wicker governess cart.

its a very old cart- i dont know whats on it but i definately do not think its a run-off-the mill type of cart. the president who was big into cart horses and driving wouldnt have settled for something cheap like that as he took great pride in his fleet. i didnt fuss to much with last time i looked at it- but im going down this weekend to see what i can find out about it. i probably wont be hooking it to a pony but it will probably become a decoration for the inside of our house.

The wheels look pretty solid and i think its been stored in a barn its entire life. I think someone moving it around the university might have dropped it when moving it (hence the reason why the wicker is broken).

Where would the marker plate be located?

Thanks again!

You should find a brass plate (small) on the back of the carriage, generally on the frame just below the back door. The plate will contain the maker’s business name, and the place of business. Wicker governess carts were made here in the US from about 1880 to 1915.

Take some photos, too, to share with this forum. :slight_smile:

Hi Farmgirl,

Here are some ads for governess carts–perhaps they will help!

http://www.colonialcarriage.com/item.cfm?id=55

http://www.morgancarriage.com/?q=node/577

http://www.thecarriagehouse.com/PonyGoverness.htm

http://www.morgancarriage.com/?q=node/572

will do. IM going to be writing letters to the dean and president of the university because there are also several other wagons in this barn, one in particular is the size of a budweiser wagon. Its white with a fancy paint job and an old feed store name on the side with a town and state on it. the thing is enormous and as mint as it could get. It should be on display somewhere, not sitting in an abandoned barn collecting bird poop and dust. i will get pics this weekend when i go back to check it out. i should here next week wether or not it is mine. im very excited, and if its in nice enough shape when finished maybe our Welsh stallion could pull it!!! :smiley: Thanks for all the help!

Take photos of everything. There might be some other cart or carriage that would be even nicer for driving behind your pony. Especially if the original owner was really into driving animals. A village cart, Trap, would be very cool behind a stylish pony. Perhaps in even better shape than the Governess cart. Could be worth more than the Governess Cart too.

GTD is correct, fixing wicker can be expensive unless you can do it yourself. Even with the good names of Walbourne and Riker on the cart, in good shape, they don’t go for huge prices as the more stylish vehicles can. You might find a name on the hubs if there is not a tag on the back.

You can sink a lot of money into a vehicle, enjoy using it, just don’t plan to get your cash investment back. Restoration usually costs more than vehicle is worth unless it is by a special maker and style.

Given the fact that wicker isn’t the most durable thing to build a carriage or cart out of, I’m wondering if anyone can tell me why?

I do so like the look of the governess cart… but can imagine one would get some odd aches and pains from driving sideways!

We’ve had ‘d![](alogue’ previously about governess carts and when I’ve stated my strong personal opinion that they are the most dreadful things possible.

IMO they’re an interesting bit of social history and nothing more!

Interesting in so far as it gives an insight into how the upper class lived and how they were totally unconcerned with their staff’s comfort or safety.

I’d NEVER advise anyone to get one though and for sure I wouldn’t advise buying one.

They’re the MOST uncomfortable thing ever. It’s impossible to sit twisted sideways and not get severe backache!

Here they come up for sale always and often and are always and often bought by those new to driving. They’re cheap to buy … and I mean CHEAP as in often free to £50 ($100) and REALLY horrendously expensive to do a proper restoration job on and you NEVER recover your money. Because they tend to be only bought by those who are new to driving they just don’t really have a good market or value.

I’ve done a few for folks that IMO have more money than sense and the most recent I had in is here:

[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/flodden_edge/carriages/governess08.jpg)

I’ve done quite a few nice wicker gigs, phaetons and dog carts though. Nice vehicles for traditional private driving show classes and actually very comfortable material to sit against. Quite “springy”. It is very true to say though that unless you’ve got really good storage facilities and time to keep them in good condition that they’re not best recommended. They’re not easy to restore.

Again, here’s my wicker vehicles.

[IMG]http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa178/classic-carriages/Driving/phaeton.jpg)

[IMG]http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa178/classic-carriages/Driving/whickergig.jpg)

I’ve never been able to understand this design.How on earth can you sit facing sideways and drive a horse?It gives me a back, shoulder and neck ache just thinking about it.Didn’t they like their governesses back then? :eek: I might buy one and use it as a planter in my garden but I wouldn’t get one with the intention of actually driving it. :winkgrin:

thanks for the suggestions. I dont really care if i ever get my money back- i just think its a really neat cart. Like i saide- i doubt we will ever use it for driving- instead i think it just might sit in our foyer of our house. It is the only pony cart that they have and the only one that left me scratching my head and led me to believe that it was used for the presidents’ children. ( the university has never owned nor ever will own ponies). thats why im thinking the university would part with it.

The other freight wagon thing is wicked neat and quite the find. its for full sized draft horses though.

they had one other dalapodated barn that was locked so i can only imagine what is stashed away in there.

In the end- its pretty unrealistic that they would part with any of the other carriages. Even though they are never going to use them again and its doubtful anyone knows they are there- maybe someday they will have meaning to the the college

Thanks again for all your help- ill see what i can get accomplished

[QUOTE=RidesAHaflinger;3721458]
I’ve never been able to understand this design.How on earth can you sit facing sideways and drive a horse?It gives me a back, shoulder and neck ache just thinking about it.Didn’t they like their governesses back then? :eek: [/QUOTE] Nah… they were just staff!

Actually the seating position was so the governess could keep a watchful and constant eye on her little charges.

Remember this was in the days when children should be seen and not heard :wink:

I might buy one and use it as a planter in my garden but I wouldn’t get one with the intention of actually driving it. :winkgrin:
I’ve always said there’s 2 really good things you could do with a governess cart:

[LIST=1]

  • Make it into a garden planter
  • Use it for fire wood [/LIST]
  • [QUOTE=farmgirl88;3721484]

    The other freight wagon thing is wicked neat and quite the find. its for full sized draft horses though. [/QUOTE] Show us a photo and we’ll tell you what it is.

    In the end- its pretty unrealistic that they would part with any of the other carriages. Even though they are never going to use them again and its doubtful anyone knows they are there- maybe someday they will have meaning to the the college
    You’d be surprised. I get given carriages all the time.

    Often they’re just gathering dust and taking up space and truth is a carriage that needs a large amount of work on it has little residual value and is only going to be wanted by a very small number of folks and because it’s just not that easy to do a good restoration job.

    Usually what happens is they end up at best repaired and as a hobby but even that’s expensive.

    If they’ve been kept inside for years then chances are the wood will be pretty well all need replacing. In particular the wheels won’t have faired well. To keep in good working order wheels actually need to be used and got wet. If they’re kept somewhere too dry and not used quite simply they just all break apart once they’re put back into use.

    Another thing you often find is that the wheels aren’t original - why would they be… after all if the vehicle was in use, chances are it would at least have had some maintenance work done to it and such as a new clincher rail and cab tyre fitted.

    When that’s been done well then its good but all too often folks bodge the job up and do such as putting bolts through the wooden wheel to hold the clincher rail in place :eek: Metal bolt through a wood wheel is a disaster waiting to happen. the bolt rusts, the wood shrinks back and becomes rotten where it’s been drilled through and you’ve got a weakpoint… or indeed a load of them where ever the bolts have been put.

    Same with wooden shafts and again I’ve seen bodged repairs trying to fix cracks with car filler. I had a customer here last year with a disaster of a purchase and when I put my hand on the shaft it snapped where it had been “repaired” with car filler and braced with a metal plate bolted through! :eek:

    I know for a fact the university would not part with any of the larger carts and wagons because they are part of the history of the school. They drag them out once a year…not all of them…for an agriculture fest we have. It might be doubtful right now that they will part with the pony cart- but i have faculty trying to work with the current deans and department heads to try and sell the cart.

    I know the wagon is a freight wagon. i looked it up on the internet and it matches one perfectly- its just fancier- like a parade one- thats all restored and now collecting dust.

    Im not going to post too many photos especially since its not my property and since they are in old abandoned barns and this is the internet i dont want folks potentially going there. they are not on the property of the university but what once was property belonging to the university.

    First let me get my price figured out and the faculty are going to go talk to the big names to see what we can do. They definately would not give anything away. Once i get an answer, ill get some photos to post here.

    like i said it is doubtful that the cart will ever be used but it would become a decoration.

    Better she should sprout eyes in the back of her head like most of us moms have and watch the little dears that way. :D:lol:

    To the OP- good luck with your project! I like wicker carriages a lot and I have one on my wish list of carriages I want to own someday. :yes:

    Using wicker as a carriage building material was popular because it was lightweight, easy to come by, fairly sturdy for using as containment in sidewalls, trim. Back then labor was cheap to weave and put it on.

    There are a number of VERY OLD sleighs that are wicker bodies. The undercarriage with runners was wood, but all the sides and dash, were wicker. I would say fairly well used, and mostly in fair shape for being 200 years old. The folks at home made them, could easily repair them with reed from the swamp or bushes growing locally. I know my wicker laundry baskets last well. Good for years, even with heavy loads, rough use at times. No paint or finish on them. Not an expensive model either.

    Wicker was popular as “country” because it required no painting, didn’t show the dirt, and vehicle standards were different than city driving called for. You were supposed to look more casual when out in the country, at your summer home/farm, out “rusticating” with the locals. Not polite to be obviously showy in the local company.

    The wicker Ladies Phaetons are pretty, and fairly numerous because you see a number of them out being shown. Made by various makers, all pretty. Name makers like Brewster offered wicker in vehicles, still to be seen today at CAA funtions or private collections.

    Funny how some old reeds can be shaped into many elegant and useful items, still sturdy and useful over time. Would not have come to my mind as a carriage material, until I saw them in use.

    Governess carts were usually driven at a very slow pace, with small animals pulling them. That would allow governess or child “keeper” to keep their eye on the small people. I understood that the governess was expected to sit in a back corner near the door preventing escapes. She could then observe all in vehicle, be able to watch children and pony by just looking forward. Slow speed was less effort to drive with distractions of children. Perhaps bacj corner also was less body twist than sitting in a front corner. I have seen photos of Governess cart pony being led by a groom, not really driven by children inside.

    I think old time folks were just more stoic, about bad body position and pain. Sidesaddle riders always have a twist in the spine for the “elegant” look on their horse despite both feet on one side of animal. Part of the flowing look of correct rider with skirt or apron. Staying correct in your equitation is NOT easy on a sidesaddle. I KNOW a few hours out riding that way just KILLS YOUR BACK!! Sitting for hours in chairs with no spine touching the chair back, was trained into children of the upper classes. Posture said a lot about a person, especially ladies in corsets who could not bend anyway.

    [QUOTE=goodhors;3722184]
    Sidesaddle riders always have a twist in the spine for the “elegant” look on their horse despite both feet on one side of animal. [/QUOTE]

    Not if you’re riding properly in a saddle that fits correctly. The hips should be as square and level as if you were riding astride.

    Walbourne and Riker built their governess carts with a cut-out in the right seat so that the person driving could be facing forward with their knees in front of them. We purchased one at an auction for our neighbor who wanted a safe vehicle in which to take her young children for a drive with their Section A Welsh pony.

    It is the cutest little vehicle, VERY sturdy, extremely well made, easy to drive and built to last. While they were traditionally designed/used for a gentle short puttering walk around the estate so the children could “take the air”, my decidedly more modern neighbor has taken it filled with little kids over the roughest x-county on 2 hour long picnic drives, generally at a “wind in your hair” flying trot – and that thing remained just incredibly comfortable and easy for the pony to pull. The cranked axle was designed to lower the center of gravity making it impossible to tip. And the wicker (which presents a softer surface so little faces don’t bump into something wooden and hard) is drop-dead stunning – artistically woven in a beautiful pattern and in mint condition.This was one of the hottest selling vehicles for Walbourne and Riker in their heyday – so much so that they had four sizes built for varying sizes of ponies… and horses as well!

    Some people may not like the governess cart for the type seating arrangement, but then again a great many others DO like them, and especially love their charm and sweetness.

    [QUOTE=goodhors;3722184]

    I think old time folks were just more stoic, about bad body position and pain. [/QUOTE] Nah… They just died younger. Were crippled in pain and told to shut up and stop complaining just before they were sacked and sent off to the workhouse :wink:

    Sidesaddle riders always have a twist in the spine for the “elegant” look on their horse despite both feet on one side of animal.
    They shouldn’t have if they’re riding correctly.

    I have to take exception with your statement about sidesaddle riders having a twist in their spine. If they do they are on a bad sidesaddle or in one that does not fit them.
    It is a common misunderstanding about sidesaddles that you sit sideways and twist to face the front.
    IF the saddle fits the rider , properly it will sit her straight on the horse. Only the right leg crosses over the horse’s spine to the left and rests against the top horn. She remains square with the horse.There are sidesaddles out there that do twist the rider to the Left . I have ridden some.
    The sidesaddle is the most necessary to fit correctly both horse and rider to be used properly. Unfortunately with the limited supply of the Old Name sidesaddles and the fact they were built for old time Thoroughbreds, fitting them to our modern horses is not easy. The Asian imports are poor imitations of the original sidesaddles. I am old now and I can still ride in my sidesaddle. I can not ride astride any more because of a bad hip.
    Proper fitting and the sidesaddle is a dream to ride, Not a nightmare.
    I ride both English and Western in my sidesaddles. I just do not have the time to ride like I want to.
    I would like to see Sidesaddle accepted more in the Horse World as the do fill a need for the older rider and the injured or handicapped riders(both male and female).
    JMHO
    Sadlmakr